Let Them Rule - No Intro Music

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Cassy: Welcome to Martha, Mary and Mayhem. This is Cassandra Barbato. I am your host, and I'm here with my co-host, Amber Jenks.

Amber: Hello.

Cassy: And we are gonna be talking about some important things today. impacting a large portion of , the body of Christ.

What's interesting is that if you really dig into this subject, you actually find that a lot of the teaching on keeping women out of ministry, and really promoting these strong lines of authority where the woman is subordinate, come from what is an interpretation of scripture and not actually what , scripture says.

So I'm [00:01:00] really excited to get into this, because of my background too. I felt a call to the ministry, but I had teaching that was telling me I'm not allowed to do that, and, I think you've, you've expressed similar, feelings as well.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: Yeah.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: And what we're gonna talk about today is gonna be about, one, it's gonna show the truth of the origins of, Adam and Eve and how God set things up, but it also is gonna represent , the unity that Adam and Eve have. So truth and unity is the direction we wanna go

when you were growing up in church, what were some of the teachings that you came across?

Amber: There were several, but to start with, we'll take it back to Genesis. Mm-hmm. You know, the creation of man and woman. Man was created first. Adam came first, so therefore he must be in charge. ,

Cassy: And some of that comes from 1 Timothy chapter 2, and there's some descriptions there about Adam being formed first and then Eve, and the interpretation [00:02:00] is they take that as a setting up of a line of authority. we're gonna go look at Genesis, and we're gonna see what Genesis actually says.

Does that sound good?

Amber: Let's go.

Cassy: All righty. All right, so let's go to Genesis chapter 2 verse 7, and it says, "Then the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living being. The Lord God planted a garden towards the east in the Eden, and there he placed the man whom he had formed out of the ground.

The Lord God caused every tree to grow that is pleasing to sight and good for food. The tree of life, also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." So it gives us some more details about the garden, right? And we've got these two very important trees that at some point I'm gonna talk all kinds about.

Amber: I hear, I hear they come up.

Cassy: Yeah, yeah. Th- you've heard it a few times, huh? And then we go down [00:03:00] and we see that God says, he commands the man saying, "From any tree of the garden you may freely eat." Actually, let me back up a verse. It says, "Then the Lord God took the man and put him into the Garden of Eden to cultivate and keep it.

And the Lord God commanded the man saying, 'From any tree of the garden you may freely eat.'" And this, this is important. There's actually some really cool stuff that I'm not gonna totally dig into right now, but there's a reason why God put Adam in the garden first and, and I know that there's been a lot of teaching around Adam was put in-- He was made first.

He's put in the garden first, and that means that he is the one being given the, the rules of the garden, right? And he's gonna be the leader, and he's gonna be passing this on to Eve. But actually, you're getting in here pictures of Christ, and there's pictures of the gospel. And so at some point, we can, like, deep dive into what it means that the Adam, who is a type, he's patterned after Christ.

That's in Romans. Apostle Paul talks about that in the Book of Romans. why, why-- What is [00:04:00] another rendering of why Adam is in the garden without Eve just yet, and God is speaking over him the work that he's supposed to do and the law that he is supposed to keep? There's things there that are about the gospel, about Christ fulfilling the, the work on our behalf and keeping the law on our behalf so that we might come out from him.

"The Lord God fashioned into a woman the rib which he had taken from the man and brought her to the man. And the man said, 'Now this is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. She shall be called woman because she is taken out of man.'"

Amber: But see, that's the other argument. She was taken from the man. Mm-hmm. It wasn't she was created anew like he was.

Cassy: Right.

Amber: She's part of him.

Cassy: Well, she's part of him. I think that actually is a better argument, is that they, they were never created to be separate. They were created to be in unity. It was never one is over the other. It is, a creation , of [00:05:00] being, one. I mean, even we talk about the, the marriage relationship, it's the two become one flesh, God declares, right?

But there's that taking from the rib, right, out from the side, and this is actually an old saying, and I, I can't remember who originally wrote this, but it's been quoted over and over again throughout history that, she was not taken from his head, that she should rule over him, not taken from his foot, that he should rule over her, but taken from his side.

And my grandfather was the one who actually first taught me that, and I didn't realize that it wasn't his saying.

Amber: I've actually heard people say that at weddings. They've recited it at weddings.

Cassy: Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So there's, there's, ah, oh, and I, I'm gonna look it up, and I'll, maybe I'll put it in the notes of the podcast 'cause I know that there's, like, an original author to that particular theological idea that's kinda just gone through the years.

So the, Adam and Eve is, is a great love story, and at some point, I think we could probably talk about that, too, but it- I really wanna focus on the next portion, which is the, the one, the one key thing. I'm gonna bring it up. [00:06:00] I'm, I've told myself I'd make sure to talk about how God said, "Let them rule," and I wanna read that to you now because here's, here's the, the storyline that we're seeing.

God creates Adam and he places him in the garden, and he gives him some stuff to do and some rules to follow, right? And then he says, "Not good to be alone." So the woman actually becomes the solution to the first problem that we have. And then we follow that line, and now we have both man and woman created, and we can actually go back to chapter one and see what God declared when he had the full, the full two images of himself.

So Genesis 1:26 says, "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image according to our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the sky, over the cattle, and over [00:07:00] all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' God created man in his own image. In the image of God he created them, or created him, male and female, he created them.

God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and subdue it, and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.' Then God said, 'Behold, I have given you every plant-yielding seed that is on the surface of the earth.'"

And he goes on and on. And then at the end here in verse 31, "God saw all that he had made, and behold, it was very good." So now we have very good. So we went from not good to very good. But the part that I think is really important to note in this is that there's no dominion given to Adam until Eve is created.

Because dom- dominion wasn't designed to be just for the man. It was [00:08:00] designed to be for both of the images of God. And it makes sense, too, because if you have, a creation that is formed in the image of the king of the universe but has no dominion, it, can it really be in the image of that king? It can't.

Amber: Yeah.

Cassy: Right? So you've got the man and the woman both created in the image of God. Does that make sense?

Amber: Yep.

Cassy: Do you have any thoughts on it?

Amber: Other than I completely agree. but to, to refer back to the teachings- Mm-hmm ... you know, we rewind a little bit, and Adam called her woman, right?

Cassy: Right.

Amber: So he named her, so therefore, ha- you know, you have that he also named the animals, and he named Eve, and he's over the animals.

So that's one of the, those arguments- The teachings ...

Cassy: that you hear. And I have heard that. I, I think this one is probably one of the most belittling of the teachings that I have heard on why Adam would be in charge of Eve, that somehow [00:09:00] because he named the animals and then she was brought to him in like...

Basically, they're, they're saying that because the animals were brought to Adam- Mm-hmm ... and Eve was brought to Adam and he named them, that, I mean, you're, are, are we really doing that?

Amber: Like he was par- Yes ... she was paraded in front of him-

Cassy: Yeah ...

Amber: like the deer and

Cassy: everything. Like an animal.

Amber: Yeah.

Cassy: Oh, my Lord. And then

Amber: he, he named her, and so it's like-

Cassy: It's so degrading

just like he

Amber: named Fido.

Cassy: Right. It's very degrading. But let's, let's go ahead and look at this because I don't wanna dismiss anything that is being taught without giving an answer to it. And the, there's a bigger answer in the names that are given to Eve, 'cause he actually names her twice. He names her Eve- Yeah

after the fall- Yeah ... which is actually very interesting because he names her Eve, which means life, and this is after death and curse was brought to all of creation. [00:10:00] So, and, and I have thoughts about that too. But there's-- The idea there is that there's a reason and a purpose behind the names that are given, and they are very much just like Adam being placed in the garden.

All of these things are actually pictures of the gospel. They're pictures of the woman being made out from Adam, just like the church is made out from Christ. We are-- We're called the body of Christ. There's a picture of unity there. There's-- It's really designed to, from the get-go, tell the gospel story before it was even technically needed yet.

God, He put it into all that He did so that when the fall did happen, 'cause He is God, He knows it's coming, right? That there would be pictures from the beginning about the love of God, the love of Christ for His, His bride, right? So the, the woman coming out from Adam and him naming her in likeness that she came out from him is all talking about the gospel [00:11:00] message.

The Eve thing is also talking about-- It's a foreshadowing of the one who would bring forth the Christ And so she literally becomes the mother of all the living because the savior is gonna come through the woman. And these names are important for that purpose, to tell the story of the gospel. They're not important for saying Adam's in charge of Eve.

In fact, there's nothing in scripture that says because he named her, he's in charge of her. That's an interpretation that you have to put on the passage- ... right?

Amber: Yeah.

Cassy: In order to get that idea out of it. And I find a lot of that going on, that if you're trying to say that it's a restriction or it's a demonstration of authority, but you're actually having to use an interpretation of what you're saying in order to see that.

Where if you look at the text, the text says, "Let them rule." Like, there's no interpretation there. The them is there, right? So you don't have to try and look for what's [00:12:00] going on. All of the things that God commanded on them and gave them, giving them dominion was a together thing from the beginning, and there's no need to try and figure out some external interpretation in order to understand that or see that in the text.

Amber: Yeah. Al-

Cassy: Also-

Amber: Oh, go.

Cassy: Go ahead.

Amber: Oh, I was gonna say also, but you, you brought up the Fall.

Cassy: Mm-hmm.

Amber: So there's that, there's kind of a twofold to the Fall- Right ... for the support that women are subordinate. One, it was her fault-

Cassy: Right ...

Amber: is, is part of the teaching. But also, the, the consequences of the Fall.

Cassy: Mm-hmm.

Amber: You know, one of those consequences is that man would then rule over her.

Cassy: Right. Mm-hmm, and he did, and he has for thousands of years, and still today. This is why we're still seeing this. I mean, really.

Amber: Yeah.

Cassy: When you think about it, the, the reality is, is that while we have been redeemed from curse, we've been redeemed from death in Christ.

We've been completely [00:13:00] forgiven all the way, slap that back all the way to Adam, right? Sin has been paid for. So the reality of who we are in Christ and what is biblical or, let me say kingdom principles rather, Does not change the fact that we haven't seen the full redemption of creation yet. And so just because we're still seeing fallenness in this world doesn't mean that we want to represent that as the church.

I feel like that should be a, a no-brainer, but at this point, if we're looking to the, what is outlined in what God has said, and we probably should read it just to, 'cause I like to read the scripture. So right, let's go ahead and read. we know the story. Satan deceives the woman. She believes that, she's gonna gain from eating the forbidden fruit.

Turns out, was a big fat lie. Adam, who was with her by the way, and, ate as well, and they both are now naked [00:14:00] and ashamed, and they cover themselves with some fig leaves, and God goes looking for 'em. He says, let me find my verses. God says to him, "Who told you you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"

This is Genesis chapter 3 verse 11. "The man said, 'The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate.' And the Lord God said to the woman, 'What is this you have done?' And the woman said, 'The serpent deceived me, and I ate.' And the Lord God said to the serpent, 'Because you have done this, you're cursed are you more than all cattle and more than every beast of the field.

On your belly you will go, and dust you will eat all the days of your life. And I will put enmity between you and the woman.'" I feel like we should just sit there for a second because from right here, we're seeing there's a special enmity between Satan and the woman. A- and so I, I think that there's a lot of things that we've seen throughout history [00:15:00] that can verify that.

Yes.

Amber: Yeah. "

Cassy: And between your seed and her seed, she shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise him on the heel.' To the woman he said, 'I will greatly multiply your pains in childbirth, and in pain you will bring forth children. Yet your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.'" So we can start seeing some of the consequences, right?

She's gonna have increased pains in childbirth. She's gonna have her husband ruling over her. And then to Adam, he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, say you shall not eat from it, cursed is the ground because of you. In toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.

both thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and it w- and you will eat the plants of the field by the sweat of your face. You will eat bread till you return to the ground, because from it you were taken, for you are dust, and to dust you shall return." It's [00:16:00] very dramatic. So- But there's suffering because there's lack, there's excessively hard work with little produce.

All of the things that we see that are terrors and horrors in the world literally come out from the starvation. The thorns and the thistles represent, pains and sufferings. I think that collectively we do agree that the extremes of these, of poverty, and the extremes of suffering and starvation and death that came out of the fall are all bad.

Like, I think we would generally agree on that.

Amber: Yeah, I'm pretty sure. Right. That the majority

Cassy: vote. So, yeah, majority vote, I think Christians a- agree starving children, bad thing, right? Yeah. That's, that's evil and, and we're, we're looking forward to the full redemption, and we actually strive as Christians to try and bring resources to, to help those in need.

It, labor pains, it's another one. We're not sitting around going, "Yay, she's ... This is great."

Amber: Yes. Yeah.

Cassy: It's ... No, it's usually a [00:17:00] time of where the whole family is, like, grieving and waiting for the woman to come through the pains because it's, it's scary. It's, has a, a sense of danger to it. And I know we live in a world where we have such great medical resources, but it wasn't always like that.

These labor pains were terrifying because of the possibility of death.

Amber: Childbirth.

Cassy: Scary stuff.

Amber: It was pretty, pretty bad back then.

Cassy: Yeah. Mm-hmm. It really was. And nobody's sitting around celebrating the fact that it was so bad.

Amber: Yeah. And,

Cassy: and so what's interesting to me, though, is that you can go through all these different points in the, the fall, and generally we agree that those are not good, except for the one where the man rules over the woman.

That one we're like, "That one's gonna stay." Yeah, that one,

Amber: that one stays. We're not gonna fight that one.

Cassy: Just,

Amber: just the other things.

Cassy: And so, yes, we do still see it today. We still see pains, sufferings, sickness, disease, and we still see man ruling over woman. [00:18:00] But when God's kingdom steps into the picture, we see the sick healed, we see demons cast out, we see deliverance from bondage, we see abundance.

I mean, you think about all the miracles of Christ. When he broke bread and fish, there was an abundance left over. So, all of these factors that were in the fall, when God's kingdom comes near, they are eliminated. So we don't-- we're not gonna highlight them as believers and say this is actually part of what we're supposed to be promoting as a kingdom principle

Amber: Okay, so what we're saying is the point of the story is that the first thing God said was let them rule

Cassy: You can see it so clear.

It was not good when he was alone. God literally put him in the garden and gave him some stuff to do and went, "Nope, that's not gonna work." We're, we're gonna need a woman, and, and, and created Eve, and then dominion was established.

Amber: Yeah.

Cassy: [00:19:00] So if we're seeing it in light of where does authority come in, the authority doesn't start until both are there.

Amber: Yeah.

Cassy: And then Satan and the fall and rebellion and those consequences cannot reverse what God's, God's principles are. The whole point of why Christ had to come was to redeem us back from that fall. Yeah. It's not good. Not good stuff. So the end of the story there, where you get to Adam and Eve having the, the different consequences of their sin being declared, can't undo what God's original plan was.

And actually, if you really wanna get into it, when Christ came, he did not actually just put us back to our original natural state. We, we went to a next level in Christ, and this is something that we probably should touch on at some point in an, in a later episode more in depth. But we've been made a royal priesthood, right?

A royal priesthood [00:20:00] of a kingdom that is not of this earth. So we had dominion on the earth, but when Christ came and he redeemed the fall, he r- he, brought us to a new everlasting life in him and seated us on a throne with him in heaven. I mean, that's crazy because no longer is it about an earthly dominion.

Yes, we have earthly dominion because our heavenly dominion is even higher than this one. And so the authority that we have now is even far surpassed where it was at the beginning. Okay, so I hope I'm making sense at this point. We've gone through a lot of different things. We talked about a couple of different teachings that you heard in the church, some things that I've, I've heard as well.

tried to offer a little bit of correction for some of that. But the main takeaway is, is the dominion issue. Where and when did God give dominion? [00:21:00] And when you actually go back to the beginning, right? You see that you have Adam created, but there isn't dominion given to Adam yet. It's not until the woman is created that you see dominion.

That's where we hear God say, "Let them rule." And he says it twice actually, and even tells them to subdue. So there's a lot of language in there that gives clear, mandate for both the man and woman alongside each other to rule. The Fall is where we see the introduction of the man ruling over the woman, and this is clearly a negative thing.

Yes?

Amber: Yeah.

Cassy: And that is something that Christ bought us back from, but we didn't just get bought back to an earthly standard of ruling alongside each other. It is a heavenly one. , as the church, as God's people, we don't wanna be representing this fallen earth. We wanna be representing kingdom principles.

So if, if I could wrap up the whole thing I'm getting at, that would [00:22:00] be where I would go just summing it up for today. , next week we're gonna actually go into 1 Timothy and look at the, the passage that typically has been interpreted to say that Adam formed first meant he's in charge. So it'll be a really nice next step to go through as we are talking through this important subject.

Would you agree?

Amber: Absolutely.

Cassy: Yeah. So we'll be looking at some tough things next week. and we hope that you come and join us, , we hope you enjoyed the message.

Amber: Yep. Please join us next week. We'll see you then