Nailed It!

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Cassy: Welcome back, Mayhem Makers. This is Cassandra Barbato, your host. And this is Amber Jenks, your co-host. Welcome back. So in this episode, which we are affectionately calling Nailed It-

Nailed it ...

Amber: we're gonna look at different women throughout the Bible. We have in the last several episodes looked at different parts of scripture that in our upbringing and our history were taught to us in a way that maybe didn't allow women to be in pastoral positions.

And through our own convictions, we felt the need to go back and revisit those scriptures and make sure that [00:01:00] that's what was being told.-

Cassy: we've looked at, four different main passages, right? So we started in Genesis just to go-- And part of that is because people are always trying to tie 1 Timothy 2:12 back to creation order, that God from the beginning established that man's in charge of woman, but when you go back there, that's not what we find.

So we went through Genesis, we went through 1 Timothy chapter two, right? That's the one that people like to hang their hat on, that women are not supposed to be in ministry. But when you study it out, you find that it's really something that Paul is dealing-- he's dealing with , a false teaching crisis in the Ephesian church.

Mm-hmm. And so when you read it in that context the main crux of it is that it is something that Paul is dealing with for that church at that time.

He's not trying to say that all women for all time cannot be in a position of leadership. So, and then there's 1 Corinthians chapter 14, that women are to be silent in the church, something the Corinthians were teaching, and Paul is shutting them down and telling them that's not the [00:02:00] case.

And then the last one that we did on the main passages there was 1 Timothy chapter 3, which is all of the, the criteria for leadership roles. Mm-hmm. Right? And when you find-- When you go through it, you find that actually the language is grammatically, male because that was the default for when you're talking about a mixed gender group.

Amber: Yep.

Cassy: And then also we talked about the husband being the head of the wife and that being a, a passage that's really about love and mutual submission. So, and so we've gone through all of these different m- main passages, right?

Amber: And if you're a skeptic like me, you're like, "Okay, cool.

If that's really what you mean, show me the proof. Where is it, Lord? Where, where are my examples so in this episode, we're gonna look at a couple of what I like to call biblical baddies-

Cassy: if he calls both men and women to any level of leadership and we're saying that God does in fact call women to positions , of leadership over a mixed congregation, then we should be able to see that in scripture as well.

And good news, ladies, we actually [00:03:00] do.

Amber: You wanna start with Deborah?

Cassy: Let's start with Deborah.

Amber: Love it.

Cassy: You gotta deal with Deborah,

the, the m- the biggest presentation I've heard against Deborah being a good example of leadership is that there was no good men.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: And because there was no good men, God was like, "We need a woman to do this because that's my only choice." That's God's only choice. Somehow from the beginning of creation, he looked down the line of humanity and he forgot to put a good man in that lineage to rule at that time.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: And so he, he decided that he's gonna, "Dang it, I messed that up, and I've gotta put a woman in there."

Amber: I love how the, the people that argue that God is divine are like, "Yeah, maybe he just overlooked this one." Yeah. That's their argument for this.

Cassy: Yes. So these are things that people are putting on the text that don't actually exist in the text in order to, make it fit within a doctrine that they have already accepted.

I guess we could jump in and start reading scripture. I think that's a great place to start. Nice.

So I'm in [00:04:00] chapter two, verse 16 of Judges. it says, "Then the Lord raised up judges who saved them out of the hands of these raiders.

Yet they would not listen to their judge, but prostituted themselves to other gods and worshiped them. They quickly turned from their ways of their ancestors, who had been obedient to the Lord's commands. Whenever the Lord raised up a judge for them, He was with the judge and saved them out of the hands of their enemies as long as the judge lived, for the Lord, relented because of their groanings under those who oppressed and afflicted them."

So this was something that He raised up the judges. They had a purpose for deliverance, and He was with the judge to deliver God's people so one of the things that I've heard before is that, well, there's no women pastors in the New Testament. Like, Paul never highlights a woman as being a pastor. No, no other apostle or writer of [00:05:00] New Testament highlights a woman as a pastor. But, I mean, it's kind of a silly argument 'cause there's no men called pastor in the New Testament.

However, here in the Old Testament, we do have this reference to judges being, called shepherds, which is where you get the word pastor from.

So the pastor being a shepherd, they have a flock that they're caring for, protecting, and all of these things.

So First Chronicles chapter 17, verse six says, "In all places where I have walked with Israel, with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel whom I commanded to shepherd my people, saying, 'Why have you not built me a house of cedar?'" This is a conversation that is about a totally different subject.

But the point being that God in this place is speaking about the judges of Israel, whom he says, "I commanded to shepherd my people." So he calls the judges [00:06:00] as though they are to shepherd the people, and this is a, a title and a, and a type of work that is associated in the new covenant with the church and with the flock of, of God, that they're to be shepherd by these leaders, right?

So this is something that I think is important because what we're gonna read here is we're gonna go into Judges chapter four. We're gonna read about Deborah. Deborah is a woman. And she's been raised up by the Lord to help deliver the people from their enemies and she's also somebody that God has commanded to shepherd his people. All right, so as we go into chapter four in Judges, let's look at this story. Did you wanna read?

Amber: Sure.

Cassy: So this is Judges chapter 4, verse 4

Amber: And it says, and bear with me, there are some names. Now Deborah, a prophet, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading Israel at that time. She held court under the [00:07:00] palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites went up to her to have their dispute decided.

She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali, and said to him, "The Lord, the God of Israel, commands you, 'Go take with you ten thousand men of Naphtali and Zebulun and lead them up to Mount Tabor.'"

Cassy: I think it was mean for me to ask you to read this.

Amber: I-- Totally on purpose. In verse seven, "I will lead Sirsa, the commander of Jabin's army- I

Cassy: think it's Sisera.

Amber: Sisera.

Cassy: Yeah.

Amber: I knew I was gonna do that. I told you. Verse seven, "I will lead Sisera, the commander of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his troops, to the Kishon River and give him into your hands." Barak said to her, "If you go with me, I will go; but if you don't go with me, I won't go." "Certainly [00:08:00] I will go with you," said Deborah, "but because of the course you are taking, the honor will not be yours, for the Lord will deliver Sisera into the hands of a woman."

So Deborah went with Barak to Kedesh. There Barak summoned Zebulun and Naphtali, and ten thousand men went up under his command. Deborah also went up with him.

Cassy: Nice, you made it all the way through.

Amber: So many names.

Cassy: So lots to point out. now Deborah, a prophet. That's the first thing that we see introduced next to her name, right?

So this is a spokesperson for the Lord.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: Right? So now Deborah, a prophet, and it says that she is leading Israel at that s- at that time. And the Israelites went up to her to have their disputes decided.

So we have somebody who is called a prophet, right? She's a spokesperson for the Lord, but she also has the authority and the wisdom to decide disputes between the people. So this is clearly a [00:09:00] leader over these people at this time.

Amber: Right? And I think it's important to note , the word prophet here.

In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit, comes , and lives inside of you and- Yes ... you have that direct communication- Right ... with the Lord. They didn't have that then. Nope. It wasn't after the new covenant.

Cassy: Right.

Amber: So they had to get their word through a prophet.

Cassy: Mm-hmm.

Amber: Unless just God sent whatever angel, burning bush, whatever you may have- Mm-hmm ... to directly communicate with someone, , they went through a prophet.

Cassy: Yes. So she's a spokesperson for the Lord. She decides between any kind of disputes that come up for the people. but she gets a word, right? "And the Lord, the God of Israel, commands you, 'Go take with you 10,000 men

she's giving a direct command from the Lord to Barak, and included in that command is also 10,000 men.

Amber: This is a direct example of God specifically [00:10:00] choosing a woman-

Cassy: Yes ...

Amber: to give commands to men.

Cassy: So the Lord then is telling him, "I will lead Sisera, the commander of Jabin or Jabin's army, with his chariots and his troops to the Kishon River and give him into your hands."

And so Barak responds to her, "If you go with me, I will go. But if you don't go with me, I won't go." And he's talking to Deborah. And so what I've heard is that he was a coward 'cause he needed a girl with him on the battlefield.

It's not in the text at all. It's a declaration of trust. Yes.

If I was getting ready to go into war, and I didn't have the Holy Spirit to lead and guide me in those moments of war, I would probably want the person who is the spokesperson for the Lord to go with me onto the battlefield.

Amber: It sounds like a pretty good advisor to me.

Cassy: Yes.

Amber: I mean, if I was gonna pick anybody-

Cassy: yeah, this would be the one. So this is actually to me a picture of somebody who trusts her. He's looking [00:11:00] for , the wisdom of God to be with him in this whole endeavor.

This is the NIV that we're reading out of right now, and the way that they present this verse nine leans in sounding like Deborah is saying, "Well, because you asked me to go with you, you're now in trouble."

Mm-hmm. So it says, "'Certainly I will go with you,' said Deborah, 'but because of the course you are taking, the honor will not be yours, for the Lord will deliver Sisera into the hands of a woman.'" And so this-- that phrase, "but because of the course you are taking," several other translations They say it in a different way.

Like the NASB says, she said, "I will certainly go with you. However, the fame shall not be yours on the journey that you are about to take, for the Lord will sell Sisera into the hand of a woman." so that's, that reads a lot different than because of the course you are taking, you're not gonna get the glory for this.

Amber: Yes. This isn't reading as a consequence.

Cassy: It's reading as a [00:12:00] fact, right? that she says, "I'm gonna go with you. However," factual information here, prophet of the Lord speaking, "the fame shall not be yours on the journey that you are about to take, for the Lord will sell Sisera into the hand of a woman."

What if it, what if it could be understood that way?" There has to be a second witness in scripture. There's gotta be something to verify, what direction is the right direction to go with interpretation. Mm-hmm. And the Lord consistently puts witnesses in scripture to show you the right way to interpret.

And if you go to Hebrews chapter 11, you find that Barak is listed in the, the great heroes of faith. And so the narrative that he is a coward or that he is being, punished for not believing God the first time and needing Deborah to go with him on the, the battlefield, n- now he's not gonna get the [00:13:00] glory, doesn't actually line up with what the New Testament says about him.

Because if he is listed in the, the line of the great heroes of faith, then we can say that Barak is not a coward, but he is a faithful man of God. Mm-hmm. And he's celebrated in the New Testament for that. This is not a situation where God didn't have any good men. This is a situation where the person he chose to lead , that people at that time for the deliverance that he wanted to take place was Deborah.

And she was apparently pretty good at it because there's 40 years of peace that follow this whole event. There's actually nothing bad spoken about her in scripture. So, I think you wanna continue through the story though, because the story gets pretty eventful.

Amber: There do be some things. There do be some things.

Cassy: Let's pick up in verse 14. All right. And it says, "then Deborah said to Barak, 'Go. This is the day the Lord has given [00:14:00] Sisera into your hands. Has not the Lord gone ahead of you?' So Barak went down Mount Tabor with 10,000 men following him. At Barak's advance, the Lord routed Sisera and all his chariots and army by the sword, and Sisera got down from the chariot and fled on foot.

Amber: Barak pur- pursued the chariots and army as far as Haroseth Haggi-

Cassy: Hag- Haggai ...

Amber: yep, these are big words. "And all Sisera's troops fell by the sword. Not a man was left. Sisera , Meanwhile, fled on foot to the tent of Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, because there was an alliance between Jabin king of Hazor and the family of Heber the Kenite."

Cassy: This is the, this is my favorite part of the story.

Amber: This is when it gets very Dateline, like after school special. Jael went out to meet Sisera and said to him, "Come, my lord, come right in. Don't be afraid." So he entered her tent and she covered him with a blanket. [00:15:00] "I'm thirsty," he said. "Please give me some water." She opened a skin of milk, gave him a drink, and covered him up. "Stand in the doorway of the tent," he told her.

"If someone comes by and asks you, 'Is anyone in there?' say no." But Jael, Heber's wife, picked up a tent peg and a hammer and went quietly to him while he lay fast asleep, exhausted. She drove the peg through his temple into the ground and he died.

Cassy: Into the ground.

Amber: Like, that was with some passion.

Cassy: Yes. I'm sure she did it with a very gentle spirit.

Amber: With the, the direction of the Lord.

Cassy: So I love this part of the story she's taking this very submissive role,

but once he gets in the door, she's got him tucked into bed with a milk and blankie- Mm-hmm ... and then she stands watch over any monsters to make sure that he's not, gonna be attacked while he sleeps. I just, I [00:16:00] picture my kids- Mm-hmm ... and tucking them into bed at night, tucking them in with their nice full tummies, getting them nice cozy into bed, keeping them safe, making sure that none of the monsters are gonna get them while they sleep.

, There's just a very strong picture of, woman

Amber: it's the motherly way.

Cassy: Yes. There's a, it's a lot of estrogen in this story. It

Amber: really is, and she's really good at it- Yeah ... in the, in the h- even the hospitality of- Yes ... of the whole story. Mm-hmm. Not only am I gonna give you a blanket, you're gonna ask for water, and I'm gonna one-up that.

She gives him milk, not just water, and really wants him to feel secure and safe.

Cassy: Mm-hmm. And, and then- Tent peg through the skull into the ground.

Amber: She was like, "What war?" Game over

Cassy: Yeah. What war? I like that. at the very, at the very end of the chapter, it ends with this, "Then the land had peace 40 years." So that's the end of the [00:17:00] story of Deborah, is that she brings through following the commands of the Lord, through giving the command of the Lord, and the people following her leadership in this, , the land has peace for 40 years.

Do you, you want me to suffer through reading this one? Absolutely. It's your turn. Okay. So we're gonna move into, , another story about the woman Huldah, who is a prophetess, again.

, We're gonna see a woman speaking to men in leadership and, them following what the word of the Lord that comes through her is.

, 2 Kings 22:8 says, "Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the secretary, 'I have found the Book of the Law in the temple of the Lord.' He gave it to Shaphan who read it, okay, so here's a little bit of backstory. They had lost this book, and so basically the leadership had dealt so poorly with the Lord's things that they had actually lost this book. [00:18:00] There's a lot of idolatry in, the country at this time. Mm-hmm. And King Josiah, who became king at eight years old, that's at the beginning of the chapter, it says in verse two that, "He did what was right in the eyes of the Lord and followed completely the ways of his father, David, not turning aside to the right or left." He, he basically purges the land of idolatry, but in the midst of his bringing , the people back to the ways of the Lord, this book is found.

And I'm gonna skip down to verse 11. It says, "When the king heard the words of the Book of the Law, he tore his robes. He gave these orders to Hilkiah the priest, , uh, Hicam, son of Shaphan, Akbor, the son of, Micaiah. Shaphan, the secretary, basically gave the orders to the high priest and a bunch of other dudes. And says, "Go and inquire of the Lord for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, about what is [00:19:00] written in this book that has been found.

All right, so Hilkiah the priest and these other dudes, they go to the prophet Huldah, that's in verse 14. You can read all about that. she lived in Jerusalem, so here's another thing the prophet Jeremiah was actually, during this time. Mm-hmm. And he's a dude. He's a man. So why wouldn't they go to him? This is definitely not a, a situation where we can say there was no other good men.

There's a prophet at the time that is a man, that they could have sought out for this, the purpose of, learning about what the Lord has to say about this particular book. But instead they go to Huldah. So in verse 15, it's, she says to them, "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel says. Tell the man who sent you to me, this is what the Lord says."

So I just wanna pause, and I wanna have the listeners soak in for a moment. [00:20:00] If the Lord tells you to say something, you have the authority to say it.

In this circumstance, she's giving an authoritative word of the Lord to not just a man, but to some of the highest leadership people in , the whole of the country. Yes? Yes. The king and the high priest are receiving this word, so the king's not actually there with them, but he has sent his people to get the word of the Lord from this woman.

"This is what the Lord says, 'I'm going to bring disaster on this place and its people,' "not good news, according to everything written in the book the king of Judah has read.

"So then she goes on, "Tell the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the Lord, 'This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says concerning the words you heard.

Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before the Lord when you heard [00:21:00] what I have spoken against this place and its people, that they would become a curse and would be laid waste. But because you tore your robes and wept in my presence, I also have heard you,' declares the Lord." He's so merciful, right?

'Therefore, I will gather you to your ancestors, and you will be buried in peace. Your eyes will not see the disaster I'm going to bring on this place.' So they took her answer back to the king." This book was authenticated by this word.

Amber: Mm-hmm.

Cassy: Because while they had read it, they'd found this book, and they're pretty sure they know what it is, they are taking it to a prophet to see what the Lord has to say about it.

And in her delivering to them this word, she has authenticated that, yes indeed, they did find the Book of the Law.

Amber: Mm-hmm.

Cassy: This is huge. [00:22:00]

Amber: Yes, and fun fact, some scholars believe that the Book of the Law that was found in the temple may have been the book of Deuteronomy. That's what they think that was discovered at this time.

Cassy: And so if you consider that this is something that we have studied for thousands of years, this is a huge part of even the, the scriptures, the holy scriptures that Christians read today, and it is in essence been authenticated by a woman, who is also giving her testimony of the Lord's word to some of the highest leadership in the country who are also men.

So couple of things that kinda tying this all together, we're gonna wrap this up, but I, I wanna go real quick to an argument that comes out of Isaiah chapter 3. And one of the things I've heard is that in the no good men theory when it comes to Deborah, that whenever you have God, you see Him using a woman, it's because there's, [00:23:00] there was no good men, this, this concept, or it's judgment against God's people when the Lord uses and raises up a woman for leadership.

This actually comes from Isaiah chapter 3, where they're getting that argument from. And so here's the, the verse that they actually, pull it from. It's chapter three, verse 12. It says, "Youths oppress my people, women rule over them. My people, your guides lead you astray. They turn you from the path.

This passage is really about the Lord stripping anything that is of strength or of wisdom in His judgment against a people.

And so you-- I'm not gonna read the whole thing 'cause we've already read a lot of scripture, but just to give some examples, he says that, "See now, the Lord, the Lord God Almighty is about to take from Jerusalem and Judah both supply and support, all supplies of food and all supplies of water, the hero and the warrior, the judge and the [00:24:00] prophet, the diviner and the elder," and going on and on, right?

So this little verse, that verse 12 that talks about, "The youth will oppress more people and women will rule over them. My people, your guides lead you astray and they turn you from the paths," this little thing here is the one where people, that are in favor of leaving women out of roles, they say, "Well, lookit.

When a woman's in charge, it's judgment against the people."

Amber: Which is silly because if you look at the beginning of the passage, that would also mean that anytime there is disaster it also means that God's judging the people.

Cassy: Mm-hmm.

Amber: And we know now that sometimes-

Cassy: Disaster is a result of the Fall.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: Yes.

But there's, there's clear evidence in the two women that we just talked about, especially Deborah, that this is a woman that was raised up for that time by the Lord to shepherd the people. She was a prophetess. She delivered [00:25:00] the word of the Lord, and the end result was 40 years of peace.

So you can't say that this verse is always to represent that when a woman's in charge it's actually judgment against the people. I do think it's really cool, though, to look at the story of Deborah and Jael and see how God actually can use that which would be considered weak by the world's standards to shame that which thinks that they are strong or lifted up.

And we see that in the story about Jael and Sisera. You have a housewife, right? She's a tent woman, and she brings about the defeat of a great military commander. That's not the way that he wanted to go down. Right? You know, maybe slain on the battlefield by a-another man of war who's studied in the art , of [00:26:00] warfare, not by a housewife with a tent peg.

So you have this picture of, of God taking that which is not To shame that which is. That which is considered weak by the world's standards. To shame that which is considered strong. It is a judgment. God did use that as a judgment, not against Barak because somehow he was a coward, ... And it wasn't Deborah being a judgment against God's people because He put her into leadership.

No. There is a picture there of judgment. It is judgment against Sisera. Mm-hmm. The one who thinks that he can come against God and His people. God brought him low by something that would, he would've been ashamed to have died in that way.

Amber: Mm-hmm. And there's multiple examples in scripture where God will humble those that boldly defy Him.

Cassy: Yes. So this, [00:27:00] the comment about the youths oppress my people, another one we could tie that into the story of Huldah. Josiah becomes king at eight years old, but he does not oppress the people. He drives out idolatry.

Mm-hmm. You gotta read scripture in context. You've gotta read scripture in light of the whole of scripture. Every time somebody is, a, a woman or a youth are in positions of leadership, it does not mean that God is oppressing or coming against that people. It means that God can use those things which may be considered foolish or weak, to shame those who think that they are wise and strong, and that is a biblical principle even in the new covenant.

1 Corinthians 1, he says, "For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength. Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards, not many were influential, not many were of [00:28:00] noble birth.

But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise. God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. God chose the lowly things of this world, and the despised things, and the things that are not to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before Him."

That's good stuff.

Amber: So what we hope we have demonstrated for you today is just a few examples of women in the Old Testament that really personify women in leadership, women that have been chosen by God to teach and preach and educate and-

Lead and give words of God to His people.

Cassy: Would you please share this episode? Share it with people, that you know maybe in need of hearing about this message. There are people that are in bondage. , My hope is that these episodes are going to set people free to live out any gift or [00:29:00] calling that the Lord has placed in their life.

Amber: Next time, we're gonna look at a couple ladies in the New Testament.

Cassy: Yep.

Amber: They're equally, if not more exciting.

Cassy: All right. We'll see you next week. See you guys.