Silly Women

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Amber: So great. Welcome to Martha, Mary, and Mayhem. This is Cassandra Barbato, your host, with my co-host here, Amber Jenks. Hello.

Cassy: And, we're gonna talk about 1 Timothy 2:12 and the surrounding verses today. We are going through, a few episodes here on the topic of women in ministry, tying in a little bit about, the marriage relationship as well, because it kinda falls in a lot of these conversations are

in the church around men and women as far as lines of authority, that God has established.

when you internally [00:01:00] have the knowledge of the gospel, you maybe have studied scripture or you feel, the Lord pulling you in a certain direction, you have a certain gifting that He's given you, and yet you have your surrounding community telling you that you are not, you're not qualified.

And the qualification is what your flesh has been molded into. I know that there are some that get very extreme- Mm-hmm ... where, the woman is basically not to participate in any type of leadership whatsoever,

that wasn't my experience. My experience was a little bit, restriction light version. So basically women couldn't be pastors. and then there was question marks around whether or not she should even be preaching the gospel.

Amber: Yeah. Right? his call to ministry isn't as long as it's to lead VBS or Yeah.

Cassy: Right ...

Amber: or as long as you're teaching children, fifth grade and younger- Yes ... it's fine. Or, "We need your help for the potluck, but not the pulpit."

Cassy: Right.

To have the communities around you tell you, "Nope, this [00:02:00] isn't for you," but the spirit in you, the, this drive in you-

Amber: And then you question your own walk because you think- Yeah ... you may be misinterpreting the Holy Spirit, and if you're misinterpreting this, what else have you misinterpreted?

Cassy: It's an important conversation. If we're gonna silence half the body of Christ, we should be really, really sure that that's what we're supposed to do.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: but because of being a woman, I had to deal with this issue. And so my comprehensive evaluation- ... after a long time of looking into it, is that a lotta the things that we have been taught as this is the truth are interpretations of the text.

So 1 Timothy 2:11-15 are really a weapon that , the church has used incorrectly. Yeah. Because it's one that should be dealing with- difficulties within a church and, looking at how [00:03:00] leadership can deal with when false doctrines are coming into a church, and what steps you might take to deal with false doctrines being brought into a church rather than using it to, apply to all women all time.

So 1 Timothy 2:11 says, "A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness."

The, command there is for her to learn. So the command is not on the silencing or the submissiveness. The command is actually a woman must learn, so that's where the, the directive is.

It shows us also the way in which she should learn. But there's definitely a, a, a really clear this is something she should be doing. She should be a part of the doctrinal teachings, right? Yeah. That's important. but going on from that, it says in verse 12, "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise [00:04:00] authority over a man but to remain quiet.

"For it was Adam who was first created, then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman, being deceived, fell into transgression. But woman will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint."

And so there's a lot to unpack here, and we're gonna go through it like verse by verse. But that, that main 1 Timothy 2:12, that's the one. "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet." I've actually had that verse yelled at me.

Amber: That's terrible.

Cassy: Yeah. So that one gets used quite a bit. In my mind, it is a, it's a spiritual force of darkness- Mm

that is wanting to diminish , the woman's God-given dominion, and, that verse gets used to kinda push her back down to a submissive role. [00:05:00]

Amber: It does, and it really, if you grew up the way I did, it was also used, to teach a woman how to act at, in her home. The fact that she's, can e- exercise authority over a man, where it says in verse 12 is part of the reason I s- felt like I had to stay trapped in a marriage for several years that was abusive and unhealthy. And , I would, wake up every day and not know what personality that I was gonna get from my husband.

I didn't know if he was gonna be drunk and angry, or if he was gonna be drunk and fun, or if he was gonna be sober and angry. But because I had made this commitment before God, and because it told me that I was supposed to submit to my husband, and so you know, you take all these things that you've learned growing up and you think that's how you're li- you're supposed to live your life.

So you don't, you don't escape, you don't speak up, and you, you think that , it's-

Cassy: That you're honoring God doing

Amber: this, right? Just that you're honoring God by- Mm ... being submissive and staying quiet. And you know, I, and I know that I was in a point to where, it was bad. I don't wanna go [00:06:00] into all the details, but I think I've shared with you something silly, is I got something thrown at me for not putting cheese on a BLT.

Cassy: Mm-hmm.

Amber: it's not, there's no C in BLT, right? Like, I hit the basics. I even added mayonnaise to it. But there wasn't cheese on it, so it incited this just abusive rage, and there were so many other things throughout the marriage and, It had gotten to the point to where, that we had two young kids at home and, I had, against my in-laws' advice, I had continued to work 'cause I think part of me knew I was gonna need to be financially independent.

I wasn't gonna be able to stay, be a stay-at-home mom. so there were times that he was alone with the kids and it would just, it felt unsafe. And, I remember, I... It was one of the few times that I feel like I've heard the Lord audibly, but I heard a voice say, "Get out now." He had been arrested. He was in, rehab, and I, I thought things were gonna get better, but then I heard this voice, and so I packed up and left.

Within a few days, I went back home. and turns out that was the good [00:07:00] thing to do because- Right ... he then went on to spiral way downhill and get- Mm ... worse and, things even though I was no longer in the home, the abuse continued from afar. Luckily, he just wasn't able to reach me, and I believe had I stayed with him, I wouldn't be here anymore.

He was- Yeah ... he was a very violent individual. and part of m- my misinterpretation of a verse like this is why I endured it for so long.

Cassy: That's really sad.

Amber: Yeah. I'm sorry to bring you down.

Cassy: No, it's okay. I, I think it's important to share because how many other women are going through the same thing?

Amber: Oh, there's, and in complete silence 'cause they think that's the honorable, elevated-

Cassy: Or living through- ... way to be ... their children being abused.

Amber: Yeah.

Cassy: But yet they're supposed to submit to their husband.

Amber: Yes, because he's a man. And- He has that authority ...

Cassy: and not understanding the reality of the dominion they've been given on this Earth-

Amber: Yes

Cassy: context is king. If you don't know the context, it can be difficult to understand.

And in this particular passage, it's really important because [00:08:00] Paul says some things that are even weird. he gets into- ... the fift- the 15th verse there, "But women will be, preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint."

What in the world does that have to do with anything?

But I think if we look at the context of the culture at the time, we can gain some insight. So first, I think it's good to point out that 1 Timothy chapter 1, Paul tells us what's going on right at the beginning. If you go to verse 3, he says, "As I urged you upon my departure from Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines."

Verse 4 says, "Nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God, which is by faith."

So he's like, "Look, there's people that are teaching things they need to stop teaching, and that's why I left you there." "Get them to stop teaching these things," right? The church that Timothy is at is in Ephesus, and if you read through the [00:09:00] Book of Acts anytime soon or recent, you would note there was, like, a big riot about the goddess Artemis.

they're making the g- the idols for, Artemis. They're like little statues or whatever, and they decide that Paul is actually gonna ruin their job because nobody's gonna buy their stuff if they all convert to this other religion.

So they start a riot.

And then they go in and they start chanting, gra- Great is Artemis. Yes. Yeah, yeah. And this goes on for like two hours before it gets shut down, right? And it's this huge event. So that's , the culture that they're in, and this is a huge part of the Ephesian culture.

, The temple of Artemis was one of the Seven Wonders of the World. It's , their bank, like their treasury. They have people that travel from all over to come see this temple. It's a huge part of everyday life. This particular version of Artemis had s- a storyline [00:10:00] where she was, she's the firstborn-

Amber: Mm-hmm ...

Cassy: of the, of her and her twin, Apollo.

And so we should note that. She's the firstborn, and then she actually becomes her m- she turns around right upon birth and has the strength to become her mother's midwife, and she , helps to deliver her brother, Apollo And this aspect of her being a savior goddess, a, a goddess that was, a midwife was a huge part of the Ephesian culture.

. So having some sense of security in this myth around this midwife goddess that would help bring them through childbirth , was a big part of the upbringing.

And you gotta think about, every time mom got pregnant or aunt got pregnant or a sister got pregnant, they would be seeing these women, paying homage to the goddess Artemis to help them get through, their pregnancy and [00:11:00] delivery. And I think if we go back to the text, we can start seeing how some of the things that Paul is addressing in the post 1 Timothy 2:12, as we get into 13, 14 and 15, start to look more like correcting doctrine rather than establishing lines of authority.

And I think that's so important because if we're going to, if we're gonna try and say that this passage establishes a line of authority, that goes all the way back to Adam and Eve, you really need to have more than just this verse to back it up.

We know Paul is dealing with false doctrines. We know there's this major cult of Artemis going on, huge part of their everyday life. There's doctrinal issues going on. and so if we read the 1 Timothy 2:12 in light of that, it gives a little bit of a different sense about it. [00:12:00] If somebody is being told they need to learn, it means they probably are getting some things wrong , you know?

Amber: Yeah.

Cassy: So now if we back up even to verse 11 when he says, "A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness." If there is an issue, particularly with the women, and they would've participated in this, cult, es-especially some of the higher status women.

You can see how Paul might be having some issues with strange doctrines coming into the church that he needs to correct.

Amber: Yeah. it could muddy his message a little bit.

Cassy: It could, yes. So when somebody's being told to learn, there's usually a purpose for it. It means they don't have the correct information, and so he's giving a command and instruction for the woman to learn. And then he s- he restricts. And this is-- here's-- this is the crux.

This is the part that I want to land on, and I hope that anybody listening takes this one thing, because all of this that I'm talking about with context only helps to [00:13:00] give us an idea of interpretation. it doesn't give us the, the facts of exactly what's happening. But I can tell you exactly what's happening in verse 2:12, is that Paul says, "I do not permit."

So and why is this important? It's important because Paul is doing something according to the authority that he has to deal with whatever he is dealing with within that church at that time, and he's making a decision to not permit a woman, could be one or women in general. It actually is singular in the verse. Saying that he does not permit a woman to have-- to teach or have authority, and e-even that word authority carries with it a sense of, usurping. It's not your healthy type of leadership. So he's saying, "I do not, I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man."

Paul doesn't say, "God does not permit." He doesn't say, [00:14:00] "Scripture, the holy scriptures do not permit." He doesn't say, "The law," right? He's saying he doesn't permit this, and it's actually in the Greek. This is something you can study out. You can get out your interlinear-

push on the little numbers there, and it'll take you to the actual words there. Paul says this is something he is not doing. Not God,. He's not doing. And that's important because Paul does that throughout his letters. There's times where he even says, "I don't have a command of God, but this is what I think you should do."

And that's, that's something that we would expect from a good leader I mean, you and I are in leadership.

Amber: Yeah.

Cassy: There's policy, and then there's, like, areas where we know we're called to make a decision as the leader in that situation, and that's exactly what Paul's doing. He's being a good leader dealing with things that are going on in that church.

But he's not saying, "This is the policy guide from God's handbook or a new policy that came through Revelation." He's establishing something for that [00:15:00] time.

Amber: Yeah.

Cassy: For that situation.

Amber: Even if you look at it as the woman must learn, when you're in the midst of studying something, day one and two, that doesn't make you the authority, so it would almost make sense to just be quiet for a minute.

Cassy: let's figure some things out.

Amber: Yeah. get the bad out first- Right ... before you then assert your authority- Exactly. ... and you- Mm-hmm ... speak out because you're gonna, you're gonna really confuse people- ... if you take, you m- combine the two.

Cassy: Exactly. And if we go on from verse 12 and we get into the order of creation, which we talked about last week.

So last week we got into Genesis. We looked at the order of creation. We talked about Adam being made first, and then how God declared it was not good for him to be alone, so he creates woman. So she's the first, the answer to the first problem that we have in scripture, and then he gives them dominion after they've been created.

That whole thing is been twisted from misinterpreting verse 13 here because [00:16:00] this, it says this: "For it was Adam who was first created and then Eve." So there's... The idea is that Paul is saying, "I don't allow a woman to teach and have authority o- over man because Adam's in charge 'cause he was formed first."

But it doesn't say that. He is, he's giving a doctrine. He is setting doctrine- And in my opinion, he's setting doctrine straight because he is getting, mixed information from these false teachers, from people who are, are teaching strange doctrines, as he says at the beginning of the book, and he is correcting.

And it very well could be the myths of Artemis because Artemis was first.

Amber: Yeah.

Cassy: She was born first, and then it was, Apollo that came second. And here we see Paul setting the record straight. Do you see how-- If you, if you look at [00:17:00] what's going on in the culture, there's other possibilities other than, oh, he just means that the man's in charge.

And it's-- he's taking it all the way back to the beginning. Well, hold up. That's an interpretation, and you have to go in and see what other-- what's the evidence of that? Because there isn't evidence of that when you actually go back to creation, because dominion isn't given until both the man and the woman are there You have to have more than one witness to understand what's going on, and scripture's the same way.

You can't just have one witness with no context and decide you know what's happening. You've gotta have context. You've gotta apply it across sc-scripture. You've gotta compare scripture with scripture. And what do we see throughout history? We actually see women in positions of leadership that God put there.

So-

Amber: Yeah ...

Cassy: you can't use this and say, "Oh, no, they're not supposed to be." no, Deborah is, the fir- prime example- ... in the [00:18:00] Old Testament, yes? Yes. and there's other women that you could l- Miriam was put in a place of leadership.

So you have these different areas of seeing what God has declared that woman should do. You can't take this and say, "Actually,

Amber: we're gonna-" all that doesn't matter. "

Cassy: We're not-- We're gonna erase all of those and decide that what Paul meant here is that because Adam was formed first and then Eve, he's the boss."

That's an interpretation. That's not fact. Paul didn't interpret that for us. That's an interpretation that's put on the text itself. and even what I'm offering is a possible interpretation because the fact is we don't have the exact, storyline behind exactly what Paul is trying to address.

So we have to read it in light of the full scope of scripture and the best historical context that we have. So potential reading of that is that Paul is correcting the fact that it was actually Adam formed first. If he's [00:19:00] correcting false doctrines in the church, he's saying, "Ah, we're not letting, the woman teacher have authority over a man because potentially she's teaching wrong things."

And then if you go on and he says, "And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived fell into transgression." Again, I think this is very potentially correcting false teaching that is going on in the church at the time. And then the last one, this one actually in my mind makes the most sense in light of the cult of Artemis that this culture had when it-- Paul writes, "But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint."

Because there is gonna be women coming out of this cult and into the Christian church who they thought they had this security blanket of this [00:20:00] midwife goddess that would protect them through childbearing if they honored her appropriately, and now this has been shifted away from them. How does Christ fit in to my motherhood and my childbearing? And Paul giving some corrective teaching. You don't need to go worship the goddess Artemis. Christ is all you need, guys. Stay right here, okay? You don't need to go back to the temple for this particular issue.

The woman will be preserved through childbearing if they continue in what? First thing, faith.

So my point being is that all of this text There's a better interpretation is what I'm trying to say, by looking at the context of the culture at the time.

Amber: Yeah, for sure. when you put yourself in the mindset and you think about who he's actually speaking to-

Cassy: ...

Amber: and why he's speaking to them- Mm-hmm ... it makes the most sense that he's telling them, " Be quiet and learn some things."

Cassy: Yep.

Amber: not forever, [00:21:00] just sh, , you got it wrong. Yep. Please be quiet. And then don't start shouting what you know until you know it.

And then, your teaching was that- Artemis came out first, and then Apollo but what had actually happened was God created Adam and then Eve And then you don't need this goddess to be saved from childbirth if you have faith

Cassy: yes. And I think this is just a better interpretation.

To me, the corporate line- The

Amber: corporate

Cassy: line works ... with the policy thing there's times where policy may even allow things that I will restrict because I have a team member that is not, performing up to standard. You know what I mean? There could be- Right ... an openness for policy and I'm like, "Actually, this is, right now we're gonna, we're gonna pull back on here because we're not performing to standard and we've got to get to standard before we can go back to having this freedom over here."

Amber: Yep. You have those experts with loopholes. Yeah. Those are my favorite [00:22:00] at work. Those are just the best.

Cassy: but by, by having that restriction in place for a time, you actually have the ability to hopefully get the group, the team, the individual going in the right direction.

And so if you can see that Paul... All you gotta know, Paul said, "I do not permit." He didn't say, "God does not permit." He didn't say, "Scripture does not permit." That's not what he said. You can go through the rest of the book from the front to the back- ... and find that God does permit, God does call. As a matter of fact, the very first, message given under the inspiration of the Spirit says, "And your sons and your daughters will prophesy."

The very first time that Christ speaks to somebody after the resurrection is tell a woman to go preach the gospel to the men. It was to the brethren, but including the apostles there. So the firsts and the first after the new covenant are [00:23:00] very clearly including the woman in this conversation. Okay, so if we're gonna sum this up and make it as simple as possible, we're gonna look for the part that is not an interpretation. And the part that's not an interpretation is that Paul says, "I do not permit," and it's actually in the current form, so it's I'm currently not permitting. So if you wanna get detailed down to the nitty-gritty there.

And so when you're trying to understand what Paul is doing here, rather than us using this passage to restrict half of the army of God , from having, this authority to preach and teach the gospel, what we need to do is look at it in the light of what it should be used for, is how the church deals with false teachers, false doctrines.

So I hope that this is bringing some clarity to this so that those of you who have struggled with understanding how there seems to be these contradictions in what Paul teaches that you can actually put it to rest and see that Paul is dealing with something that is [00:24:00] happening at that church at that time, and that he is not applying a restriction across all women for all time. That is something that would be contradictory to what God has already established for his daughters next week we'll be looking at another passage from Paul, that is often looked at and thought to mean that we just shouldn't even bother talking in the church. It's the women be quiet. I'm gonna present some information, there's a lot of, uh, study done on this from different people, but there's one that I think explains it the best.

And so we will look at that and, I'm gonna demonstrate how Paul is actually not restricting women. He- It's gonna be great. Yeah. It's gonna be awesome. Amazing. So we will see you next week.

Amber: See you next week