Mary Mary Quite Contrary

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Cassy: , welcome back Mayhem Makers. This is Cassandra Barbato, your host.

Amber: And Amber Jenks, your co-host.

Cassy: And we are getting into some New Testament women today.

Amber: Yes. We're gonna start with Mary.

Cassy: , Just to kinda remind the listeners of what we've been doing this whole season, we've really been focusing on women in ministry, lines of authority between gender, and, what scripture actually says about this.

And so last week we did the, the Old Testament. We just pulled out a couple of women from the Old Testament. Go back, listen to that. Good stuff there. And then this week we're gonna get into the New Testament and pull out a couple of women that are [00:01:00] great examples of what the Lord is doing with the church.

And so this whole idea of being able to respond to any gift or calling in the Lord is available to both the men and the women.

God calls both men and women to all positions within the church. And even when it comes to men and women, there's not a line of authority. There is not one type of people that is put in position over another type of people where one is always a decision-maker, the other one's always a subordinate.

No, in the Christian faith, we have submit one unto another.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: We're gonna start with Mary of Magdala.

Amber: Mary being the first witness of the resurrection.

Cassy: What is so fascinating about this is that the Lord could have appeared to anyone, right?

Amber: Anyone.

Cassy: But instead we have Mary, , and I think that there's purpose behind this. I think the Lord does things on purpose.

Amber: [00:02:00] Absolutely.

Cassy: Should we tell the story?

Amber: Yes, I think we should look at the different places where she's mentioned throughout scripture.

Cassy: So this is John 20, and Jesus has resurrected from the dead,, Mary is looking for Him. She's trying to figure out what happened because she went to the tomb and He was not in the tomb. so starting in verse 11 it says, "But Mary was standing outside the tomb weeping. So as she wept, she stooped to look into the tomb, and she saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had been lying.

And they said to her, 'Woman, why are you weeping?' She said to them, 'Because they have taken my Lord, and I do not know where they have put Him.' When she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and yet she did not know it was Jesus. "Jesus said to her, 'Woman, why are you weeping?

Whom are you seeking?' Thinking that He was the gardener, she said to Him, 'Sir, if you have carried Him away, [00:03:00] tell me where you have put Him and I will take Him away.' Jesus said to her, 'Mary.' She turned and said to Him in Hebrew, 'Rabboni.'" Which means teacher. Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father, but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and to your Father and to my God and your God.'" Mary Magdalene came and announced to the disciples, "I have seen the Lord," and that he had said these things to her.

Amber: The risen Christ-

Cassy: Mm-hmm ...

Amber: specifically instructed this woman-

Cassy: Yes ...

Amber: to go tell the other disciples what had happened and what she had witnessed.

Cassy: And she becomes the first witness to the resurrection of Christ.

Amber: Could you imagine the feeling this woman is going through? Yeah. It, it had to be all of them.

Cassy: Yeah.

And carries such [00:04:00] a, a magnitude of weight surrounding this topic

Amber: . she's the first one to preach the gospel.

Cassy: Yes. that first witness, and then she's told, specifically told, to go and take it to the brethren, take it to the other disciples.

Amber: . And there are several other places in scripture where her story continues. in Mark 16:1-9, it tells the same story. It's another account of her witnessing the resurrection. Luke 8:1-3 identifies her, along with Joanna and Susanna, as women who provided for Jesus and His disciples out of their own resources.

Cassy: So this was, like, before she even gets to be the first witness of the resurrection-

Amber: Mm-hmm ...

Cassy: she's somebody that was there with Christ providing for His ministry.

Amber: Yes. Luke 8:2 and Mark 16:9, that's where, it states that Jesus cast the seven demons out of her.

Mark 15:43-41 and John 19:25 place her [00:05:00] directly at the foot of the cross during the crucifixion. Matthew 27:61 and Mark 15:47 record her watching his burial.

She sat there and watched him die. Mm-hmm. She saw them place him in the tomb, and then she went back to the tomb, and it was empty. She saw it. Yep.

Now, , there's some, some history with Mary, and it is often taught that Mary was a prostitute.

Cassy: Mm-hmm.

Amber: But this is not a fact we can conclude from what is in the scripture.

.

Amber: So the New Testament itself never describes her as a prostitute or a sexual sinner. Instead, the myth was built through a specific historical timeline. So I'm gonna give you a little bit of backstory and then we'll talk about how that came to be.

In Luke 7:36-50, there's an anonymous woman who washed Jesus' feet with her tears and then dried it, his feet with her hair.

she's noted as someone who lived a sinful life, but her specific sins [00:06:00] were never named. So people often say that that was potentially a prostitute, but that is, that's finishing a story that's not listed.

Just a sinful life. Mary of Magdalene was actually named immediately after that in Luke 8. That is common in Luke's writing of how he introduces new people. The same writing style indicates that he's introducing someone new, so that was kinda where that got confused. He was talking about the anonymous woman, then Mary came into the picture and people were just like, "Oh, it's the same person."

But it's not. You can go back to the original scriptures and, and his style of writing and see that that's not the same person. There's also Mary of Bethany, the sister of Martha and Lazarus. she also anointed Jesus' feet out of love and devotion. That's in John 12:1-8. I, I mention all three of these women because in 591 AD, Pope Gregory I preached all three of these women were the same person.

He preached that the seven demons cast out of [00:07:00] Mary represented all the vices, interpreting them, specifically as sexual sins and lust. So this pope decided that this was the interpretation of the scripture. . That these three women were the same. They're not the same. And actually, in 1969, the Catholic Church went back and said that that was not correct. Mm-hmm. That these are three separate women, and in fact, you know, in 2016, they re-elevated Mary and gave her her own feast, and they called her

Cassy: The apostle to the apostles. The ap- yes, rather than a sinner. Mm-hmm. Which I think is ... Because growing up, I remember people portraying Mary , as a prostitute. Even, a popular biblical show I like puts that theory out there, that she was potentially a prostitute when she was possessed with the demons.

Amber: But there's no facts that back that up.

Cassy: Right.

Amber: If you're drawing inferences that do not exist, and-

Cassy: I mean, it could've been greed.

Amber: It could've [00:08:00] been anything.

Cassy: Right?

Amber: She could've been a gossip.

Cassy: The reason why we're bringing this up really is because oftentimes when scripture is being taught, the, the weaknesses of women are what's highlighted, the, the faults, the failures, and they are remembered in that way. So Mary of Magdala, the prostitute, rather than Mary of Magdala, the one who preached the gospel first, right?

If we remember King David, we think King David, the man after God's own heart, yet we don't say King David, the adulterer and murderer, right? So we might teach on those things as faults and failures and how God is still full of grace, but we tend to highlight and remember men and women a little bit differently in scripture

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: , The number seven in scripture is also an important number. It represents, something that's complete and perfect.

And so I actually like, I like to look at [00:09:00] things like that in scripture. Like, and I like the meanings of names. we recently discovered that Jael is the GOAT, which is perfect, right? Absolutely. So if you know the story of Jael that we talked about last week, tent peg through the head of Sisera, defeating a, a military commander.

she's-- her name means goat, mountain goat, so she's the GOAT. She is. I love that. That's my new favorite thing. I want a T-shirt that says that with Jael- Same ... and a tent peg but names mean things. numbers can mean things. Not every single time, but there's a lot of times where God uses this as this like extra little layer of something cool to uncover in scripture.

And the fact that this woman, Mary, who the, the name Mary comes from the name Miriam, and

One of the possible translations of that is rebellion or rebellious. So you've got this woman whose name means, rebel, who is delivered of seven demons, seven being perfect. You get a [00:10:00] picture of somebody who has been completely and perfectly delivered from Satanic influence. Love that because in that you have this woman who is maybe even representing the condition of humanity being in rebellion, being completely and utterly delivered from the power of Satan, and then being given the, the gospel message and sent to give that message out.

It's very cool stuff to me.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: It, it's a picture of deliverance.

Amber: Absolutely.

Cassy: It's a picture of the church, really, because every single one of us was that woman, the rebellious, who's been in Christ completely delivered of the power of Satan.

Amber: Mm-hmm.

Cassy: Mm-hmm. And now we've been, as Peter puts it, we've been made a, a royal priesthood that is given the commission to go [00:11:00] out and preach, tell testimonies of his excellencies.

And the most excellent, the very first one, is the fact that he arose from the dead-

Amber: Yes ...

Cassy: after conquering hell, death, and the grave.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: Very good example if we're looking at who does God call to preach the gospel, who does he send into the mission field.

Amber: Not only does he call women, but they don't have to be perfect.

She had a past, she had a history, she was possessed with demons, but was still ... 'Cause a lot of people focus on the other Mary, right? The Mary, mother of Jesus.

Cassy: Mm-hmm.

Amber: Who was, the story is told that she was basically perfect and that's how she became the one that got to carry Jesus.

Cassy: Mm-hmm.

Amber: That's not the only type of person Jesus uses.

Cassy: No, as a matter of fact, Paul's like, "I was picked because I was a big mess up."

Amber: Yes. Yes. I think he likes the redemption stories.

Cassy: Yes. Yes. He's gonna highlight his favor.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: His unearned favor.

Amber: That way you know that Jesus is for [00:12:00] everyone-

Cassy: Yeah, the, the guy who wrote most of the New Testament epistles was a religious terrorist-

Amber: Yes ...

Cassy: who, , violently assaulted the church.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: And God's like, "Yep, that's my dude." Okay. That guy. Can you imagine all of the Christians being like, "What is happening?"

Amber: Yeah. And that is, what a story of eating crow. Be like, "Everything I told you guys before, just joking."

Cassy: Well, and he's so extreme. This is what I love about Paul, that he immediately, like, as soon as he knew what was right, he was like right out there in everybody's face, "Jesus is Lord."

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: No hesitation.

Amber: Yep.

Cassy: I mean, it's obvious why the Lord picked him, because he was ex- so, he was so passionate that it's, he just needed to get pointed in the right direction.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: And he was willing to go through hell-

Amber: Yep ...

Cassy: to, to preach the gospel But his past did not disqualify him. I mean, it just really, it ties into the [00:13:00] whole your flesh, man, is not your qualification.

Amber: Absolutely.

Cassy: So what you have done in the flesh is not your qualification or disqualification. Your gender, your race, your economic status, your, formal education, these things are not your qualifiers or disqualifiers.

Amber: No.

Cassy: It, it is you're qualified if the Lord tells you to go and do.

Amber: Yes. That's it. Mm-hmm. That's, that is the one, the one line on the job posting.

Cassy: Mm-hmm. That's it. And if, if He has a task that you need to be developed for, He's going to put you to that development.

Amber: Yes, He will.

Cassy: Yes. Mm-hmm. If you're gonna be a teacher, you may have natural teaching skills that He put in you, but then He also will give you circumstances to d- develop that teaching.

but you're not qualified based on something in the flesh. You're qualified if the, the Lord, the God of creation, has said, "Go do this."

Amber: Yes. Absolutely.

Cassy: Mm-hmm, yep. [00:14:00] So He told Mary that. He said, "Go do this," so she was qualified to be the apostle to the apostles.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: Let's go to ... Are we going to Phoebe?

Amber: I think so.

Cassy: All right.

Amber: That's, that's the timeline.

Cassy: So we did talk about Phoebe a little bit ago when we were talking about deacons, and we brought up how she's specifically called a deacon. We read it in the NASB, which says, calls her a servant. So in Romans 16:1, he says, "I recommend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church at..." H- You said that you th- S-

Amber: I did. I looked it up. I cheated. Cenchrea.

Cassy: All right, so that word servant there is the word deacon . So she is a deacon of this church, of the church, of the church at Syncreaea. So it's-- He's not just like, "She's a s- she's a helpful lady."

Now, this word also can be translated as minister. she is a woman that's in leadership, and we know this because as you even continue on, Paul talks [00:15:00] about her being a patroness, which is not something you can see in the N- NASB 'cause they use that word helper, that she's been a helper of many, but that word helper is patroness, which literally means a woman set over others.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: So it has-- A- and it could be also that she, there may have been financial resources involved in that, but sh- this was a woman of position and authority-

Amber: Yes ...

Cassy: that Paul also is utilizing to bring the book of Romans. So this introduction, is for a purpose My understanding is that this woman delivered the letter of Romans to these people.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: Which is huge because you have the Apostle Paul entrusting his-

Amber: His baby.

Cassy: His like this was the big deal. This is a masterpiece of Christian theological work, of him writing out, the foundational doctrines of our [00:16:00] faith.

And sends it through this woman and, commends her, recommends her to, the people and calls her a, a minister or a deaconess of this church, and that she is a patroness even of himself. so this is not a small detail. It may even be that she actually was the one to explain what the letter meant.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: So oftentimes, and this is just his, like history, what they know about when, when letters would be delivered. We don't have anything that specifically says that Phoebe explained the letter, but due to what we know from this time period, she may have very well been somebody that could answer questions regarding what the Apostle Paul had written.

So it's an important, thing to note. This is not somebody who is just a helpful lady. This is a woman of position, a woman of means, that is entrusted by one of the most famous [00:17:00] and influential Christians of all time, and carries this fantastic piece of Christian, doctrinal information to the Romans.

But that's not it. As we go through this chapter, you actually get a bunch of different women that are brought out. One, just to really quick, I know we're gonna talk about Priscilla and Aquila- But there is also a woman apostle that is talked about in this chapter, and her name is Junia.

And in verse seven he says, "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsfolk, my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding in the view of the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." So the NASB kinda throws it in there and says, "Outstanding in the view of the apostles," but it actually in the Greek says, "Outstanding among-

Amber: Yes

Cassy: the apostles." [00:18:00] Like saying that m- Mary was favored among women. It didn't mean that women favored her. It means that she was a woman. And in the same way, we have here Junia being called somebody who is among, outstanding among the apostles. She was among them because she was one, and so much so that there have been those who have actually questioned her name- Mm-hmm

and have, in some transcriptions in the past, they changed her name to a man's name, to Junias

Amber: That's rude.

Cassy: Yeah. It's not accurate, and so for the most part, when you read through different translations, you'll find that Junia is written in as Junia rather than Junius because it's actually a woman's name.

But, interesting there that we have a woman apostle [00:19:00] called out as being outstanding among the apostles by the Apostle Paul. but that brings us to kinda the, the last woman that we were gonna point out. There are other women that are prophetesses. You've got, women who operate

in evangelism. but we have Priscilla and Aquila

Amber: They were tent makers turned mentors.

Cassy: and Paul was a tent maker, so he-

Amber: So they were, they were the same peoples.

Cassy: Yeah.

Amber: They were coworkers.

Cassy: Yeah, coworkers.

Amber: They hung out together.

Cassy: They sure did.

Amber: Probably traded secrets and-

Cassy: Tent making secrets.

Amber: That sounds like a really hard job.

Cassy: It kind of does, huh?

Amber: They were church hosts and coworkers of Paul. Priscilla with her husband, they hosted house churches in Corinth, and that's in Acts 18, and later in Romans chapter 16, three through five.

Verses three through five say, "Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus."

Cassy: Fellow workers.

Amber: It is both of them. No-

Cassy: Together ... [00:20:00]

Amber: her name is first, which happens four of the six times they are mentioned.

Cassy: Yes.

Amber: Which I think is significant. "Who risked their own necks for my life, to whom not only do I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. Also greet the church that is in their house."

Cassy: So he calls out the church that meets in their house. Most likely this was the church that they were overseeing. and we have evidence of that because they are shown to be teachers in the book of Acts as well

Amber: Acts 18:24 through 26. They educated Apollos.

Cassy: Mm-hmm. This brings a giant blow to those who wanna say that 1 Timothy 2:12 where it says, "I'm not permitting a woman to teach or have authority over a man" But yet we have in scripture where Priscilla and Aquila

where they are teaching the great teacher, Apollos. So they actually explain the way of God to him more adequately, it says. This is a huge blow [00:21:00] to those who wanna say that women should not be teaching men.

Amber: Yes, because there's this very specific example-

Of where a woman who is a coworker of the Apostle Paul-

Is teaching men.

Cassy: Yes.

Amber: And acceptably doing so. Yes. She wasn't reprimanded for it. They didn't try and quiet her.

They celebrated and appreciated her.

Cassy: And, and it goes on to have a great impact because after they've, they pulled him aside, so you can read this story in Acts 18 starting in verse 24, but it says, "When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately."

Her name is there again first. There's different theories of why this is, whether she had a higher status, economically or whatever, but the fact is, is that it was very uncommon during this time to have the women's names f-first. It usually was a man and then the woman, the husband and then the wife.

But four out of six times her [00:22:00] name being first may have also been because she was more prominent in the ministry. We don't know that for sure. That's just a theory, but it is an interesting fact that you find her name first repeatedly as it's brought up.

Amber: Especially by Paul, who was a very intentional writer.

Cassy: Yes, very intentional. So they explain the way of God more accurately. Well, what's the result of that? Well, you go on, it says, "When Apollos wanted to go to, , Acacia, the brothers and sisters encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. When he arrived, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed, for he vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah."

This teaching that they gave him caused him to go on and be a great, public debater, preacher of the gospel.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: So benefit there. I like ending with Priscilla and Aquila on , our [00:23:00] women in the ministry because of what we highlighted in the first episode.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: And-

Amber: The co-dominion.

Cassy: Yeah, and God said it was very good And that's what we see here. We see very good. Everywhere that you see, this husband and wife team, it's always as a team, whether they are tent making or whether they are leading their church, whether they are coworkers with Paul, you see them together.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: Right? No defined roles. She's not at home while he's out preaching the gospel. You know? They function together as a unit, and it's celebrated in scripture.

I mean, this, how many people are brought up six times?

Amber: Not many.

Cassy: Not many. Six times in scripture.

Amber: Yes. Phoebe got two sentences.

Cassy: Yeah. This was a power couple, and when you go back to Genesis, we find

It's not until Eve is created and we see both the man and the woman that God [00:24:00] says, "Let them rule."

Yes, and he gives the mandate for them to be fruitful, multiply, to rule and subdue. And so that dominion is established for the both of them, and what does he do then? He says it is very good.

Amber: Yes. The them, not the him.

Cassy: Very good, yes. And so I love this picture of Priscilla and Aquila. It's a picture of the very good. What a, what a threat to- Mm-hmm ... the serpent, where you have the serpent goes after Eve in the garden, right? And he is successful in deceiving her and bringing destruction into the world through that deception.

And, and there's a reason why I believe he went after the woman, because it was very good after she was created.

Amber: Mm-hmm.

Cassy: But you have this, this threat [00:25:00] of being subdued 'cause you gotta think, if God is saying, "Rule and subdue," and Satan's there, he's not gonna be very happy-

Amber: No ...

Cassy: that God is telling them to rule and subdue together, giving them dominion over the Earth when that's where he was.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: And now we have the man, Christ Jesus, who comes, conquers the serpent, and then gives to his bride the right and authority to sit on his throne with him in heavenly places. So now we're not seated on an earthly throne. We're seated on a heavenly throne with Christ, right? Our heavenly husband.

Amber: Mm-hmm.

Cassy: And we are now given a different very good, one where Satan is really trampled underfoot.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: He's been completely defeated through that work of the cross and, and Christ has given us that authority to rule and reign over him. [00:26:00]

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: So when we as the church operate in the very good, where the men and the women are both called, we're, we're not seeing each other divided as Jew or Greek, right?

Mm-hmm. The in crowd and the out crowd.

We're now all brought near by the bloodshed of Christ.

We're neither male nor female in Christ. There's no division based on our flesh man anymore. We're all one new man in Christ. And so we operate in that very good picture of being united like Adam and Eve. They are united. They are one- Mm-hmm ... flesh, right? We are one as the body of Christ, and we rule and reign over Satan in that.

It's the very good.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: It's actually the next level very good.

Amber: Mm-hmm.

Cassy: Because now it [00:27:00] is from an eternal, uh, eternal position that can never be defeated.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: Good stuff. Lots of evidence that God has, does, and will continue to use women in all roles within His church.

Amber: Yes, absolutely.

Cassy: So next week we're gonna do the conclusion of this series. So we're doing eight-episode seasons, then we'll take a couple of weeks off, and we'll come back with a new season. and we've got some good topics that we're gonna be moving forward with. But we'll do the conclusion of this main topic of women in ministry next week, just kind of tying all things together, wrapping things up, answering some, some big questions that we'll be getting over the next few weeks.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: And, we will, look forward to seeing you guys then.

Amber: See you next time.