Women Be Slient

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Cassy: welcome to Martha, Mary, and Mayhem. This is Cassandra Barbato, your host, and I am here with my co-host, Amber Jenks. Thanks for being here, guys.

We are gonna be talking about a passage in 1 Corinthians chapter 14. you have probably heard them before. I like to refer to them as the women be silent verses.

So verses 34 and 35. But we will continue through the rest of the chapter 'cause there's some very important information there.

Amber: I think before we read, we should look at, some helpful instruction that was given by Michael DeFazio, hope I'm not butchering his last [00:01:00] name, a book he wrote on how to read the Bible

. So how I came across this study was one Wednesday night Bible study, this was presented and the pastor was really, helping us learn how to truly interpret and learn from the Bible. And I remember even in the genesis , of us talking about this podcast and just the importance of interpreting the scriptures properly, going through this Bible study and I could not put the pieces together on who to quote and where and how.

I just remember having it, right? So today, this morning, I was going and being my normal ADHD self I thought the, most important thing to do five minutes before I had to be out the door was change purses. And so I have three purses on my bed, the contents of them all just dumped because who actually puts things away when they change purses?

It's like treasures later when you get- Yeah ... that purse back out. I'm dumping all these things out and I'm putting what's pertinent and what I need for the day into the bag I'm gonna carry, and as I'm going, you know that stack of really old [00:02:00] disgusting bulletins that you've had for way too long and can't throw away for no reason?

So in those, I found the outline, , that was given to us when we went through the study of this book. And if you- And for

Cassy: context, she's been talking about this for weeks. For weeks. Yes.

Amber: And it was just m- you know, one of those things, it's just the brain worm that was bothering me and I could not find the proof to what I knew.

And so I found it today. I'm so excited. There are eight main points that was outlined for us on what to do and how to read scripture- Mm ... and how to get the true meaning out of everything that you read. And I can go through them real quick, and then we'll apply these to the passage- That sounds good

for today. Mm-hmm. So one, begin with the right goals. the second, read with humility. The third is pay attention to the details, the investigation piece. Discern the author's flow of thought is four, the literary context. Number five, study the wor- world behind the [00:03:00] text. What's the historical background happening so that you truly can discern the, the meaning?

Number six is read each passage in l- light of scripture as a whole.

Cassy: So important.

Amber: That one, think we touched on that a little bit last week.

Cassy: Yes, and the context as well.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: Mm-hmm.

Amber: And then seven, be sensitive to genre, and eight, l- live what you learn.

Cassy: Mm-hmm. What was the first one again?

Amber: Begin with the right goals.

Cassy: The right goals. So what is the goal? What do you think the goal is?

Amber: To understand this passage, to apply it to daily life so that we are- Mm-hmm ... in accordance with God's commands.

Cassy: Mm-hmm. I think that's good. I think that's a good goal.

Amber: And read with humility. Mm-hmm. So we're gonna approach it like we don't have it all figured out.

Cassy: Right.

Amber: The Holy Spirit can teach us, even though we read the same verse 20 times- Over

Cassy: and over ... he can teach us something new- Yes ... every time. It also means that you should read both sides of the argument.

Absolutely. So if you come to something that's debated, you can get into, especially nowadays with, like, online stuff, you can ... What's it called? An echo chamber.

Amber: [00:04:00] Yes.

Cassy: And you can just start feeding yourself, self that same concept over and over again. So it's really important to study with that,

what are, what's the argument on the other side?

Amber: For sure. And now we get into the pay attention to the details, the investigative portion.

Cassy: That's something that I probably do. I think I'm a little obsessive. Well, I was gonna say maybe obsessively. Yeah. But that's a good thing. Y- I mean, there are- Sometimes

Amber: There are times like this when it's appropriate- Mm-hmm ... to really investigate every word.

Cassy: And translators make choices.

Amber: That they do. Discern the author's flow of thought. Yes. The literary context.

Cassy: That is, gonna help with 1 Corinthians because some of the things we're gonna look at today have to do with how Paul is

, Where he's building his argument from. And we'll start in chapter 11 and kinda come through chapter 14. we'll see his flow of thought there, but there's also, kinda learning their, their language, their style of talking, and , the way that they bring things up. All of that is important.

Amber: We're gonna look [00:05:00] at the study the world behind the text. So what's going on in this time period? Mm-hmm. What's happening in Corinth? What, who is he talking to? You gotta know who he's addressing and why.

And then we've got, seven, which is be sensitive to the genre.

And eight, live out what you learn, which is what we are called to do as children of God.

Cassy: So if we go to 1 Corinthians 14:34, it says, "Women are to keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but are to - subject themselves just as the law also says. If they desire to learn anything- Let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is improper for a woman to speak in the church.

Amber: And my translation says, "For it is shameful- ... for a woman to speak in church."

Cassy: Yeah. ,

Amber: Pretty heavy.

Cassy: It is. I always had a hard time with this, because to me this is extreme, and I wanna show the listener in a minute why I feel like it's extreme.

[00:06:00] But I couldn't read it in light of the different varieties of what I was seeing the church actually live out. So I would see, , some areas where they'd be like, "It's okay for women to talk. It's not okay for them to pastor. It's not okay for them to get a, a sermon, but they can also speak or pray."

. One of the churches- ... I went to had the side microphone. So that was something, I would sit there and I'd wonder to myself, "How does this fit with this passage?" 'Cause the, you have the pulpit microphone, but the side microphone is where they could come up and give a, a message in tongues, or they could give a message, a, a prophetic word, or they could give a testimony.

Mm. They could pray for something. But I-

Amber: But it wasn't behind the pulpit.

Cassy: Right. It wasn't behind the pulpit, so it didn't count.

Amber: Yes. Those aren't real speaking in church apparently.

Cassy: No. , I'm like sorting through this trying to figure out, like, "How does that fit with women - gotta be silent in the church?"

Okay, so starting in verse [00:07:00] 34, it says, "The woman should keep silent in the churches." All right, so first of all, a church is not a building. A church is a congregation.

Amber: And then historically, the church was in someone's home. Right. It was a group of people in, that got together. Yes. They were the church in someone's home, not some fancy,

Cassy: Synagogue or something

Amber: synagogue or- Mm-hmm ... what's, where, where, where do we go?

Cassy: Sanctuary

Amber: Thank you. And that is Pear Minova's brain. Brought to you by that.

Cassy: So when it says the women should keep silent in the churches, there's, uh, it's really talking about in the gathering of the Christian believers. also the keep silent, so this is important.

The word silent there actually means to stop talking.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: So in 1 Timothy 2:12, and, well or that passage from 11 to whatever, 15, and it says that the woman should be silent. So she's supposed to learn, but she's supposed to be silent. That word is a different word that's used in the Greek, and that word has to do with self-control, being [00:08:00] subdued, like a peacefulness.

She's, she's supposed to be subdued and in a position to learn, right? Yes. Whereas this actually means stop talking, and he uses this same word a couple of times in this chapter in reference to people giving a word and then them stop talking when another one starts talking. It doesn't mean complete and utter silence. It means that you're not contributing to the conversation. Yes. If that makes sense. So the women are to keep silent in the churches. So we've got this understanding the women are supposed to not talk. They're not contributing, in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak.

Keep silent, not permitted to speak,

and so now that's in connection to them being in submission. And then Paul writes, "As the law also says." Right? So before we even go on from here, we've got, it's the law. Yes. Be silent, not permitted to speak, be in [00:09:00] submission. I mean, it's, that's a heavy hammer. So, it's very extreme. It's very extreme. And then it goes on, "If there's anything else they desire to learn."

If you even wanna learn something, ladies- Yeah, other than be quiet and be submissive. Right. So, and if you picture what he's talking about here, if you wanna learn something, that means you're asking questions. You're not even allowed to ask questions- Nope ... about what's being talked about. "Let them ask their husbands at home,

"for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church." Just to be Greek-y for a second, Let's look up these words really quick. Shameful

In the lexical summary, it says, "Disgraceful, improper, sordid." Strong's Exhaustive Concordance says, "Filthy." Ouch.

The word translated shameful or disgraceful signals conduct that falls beneath the divine standard or honor. This is the topical lexicon. In [00:10:00] scripture, the idea of shame is not merely social embarrassment, but exposure before God's holiness Okay, so I think I'm making my point that this is a strong word.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: Yeah. Just to kind of drive it home a little bit, the church assembly congregation. I just wanna make ... I, I'm not just making this up. Okay? I'm not just throwing these words out here. , the word translated as church in this passage is, the lexical summary says is church assembly congregation.

It's a called out assembly of citizens. , The community of redeemed of Christ, whether being on Earth or in heaven or both. So this is the assembly of believers. Yes. All right? It's not talking about a building. That's important because if we are going that extreme, we're going that extreme saying that women are to be silent-

Amber: in the assembly of believers- Mm-hmm ... they are supposed to be silent.

Cassy: Not permitted to speak, but should be in [00:11:00] submission. So their silence is lining them up with submission, which, uh, there's nowhere in the Old Testament law that says that. And as the law says, so now it's tying it to a law, and that they're not even allowed to ask questions about what's being taught in the assembly.

They need to wait until they're home, and it's shameful. It's disgraceful, filthy for them to speak in the church.

Amber: Or apparently on the walk home. It has to be in the home.

Cassy: Yeah, you gotta wait until you get home.

Amber: Yeah.

Cassy: So when I ... Early days, me reading this passage, and that's even before I was studying the Greek and looking

And eventually I got to the point where I'd go to my little interlinear and I'd pick on the words, and I'd think, "Well, maybe it's not as harsh as I'm getting from the translation," and no, I found out it was worse. It's like, oh, my lord. Yes. I know that there's a lot of different turning and twisting and positioning of this passage to try and make it fit with what the rest of Paul [00:12:00] teaches,

So what I've witnessed over my years is a very odd, undefined, movable line of where women are allowed to speak and not allowed to speak.

I actually read years ago, it has to be 17 years ago that I read this,, there's a few red flags that we can find as we're reading through the text, and the first one really is the fact that there is no law that Paul is actually pointing to. Is in submission as the law also says. There is no law that actually says that. Paul kinda uses the law a little bit loosely.

Sometimes he uses it to talk about the entirety of God's word as being the law, right? Sometimes he's talking about the Torah. sometimes he's pulling out a very specific word. But you can look at any of those, and there's no law that connects a woman's silence to submission and saying that that's what she's supposed to do in a congregation and the only thing that I've ever heard [00:13:00] come close is somebody pointing out the, that the man shall rule over woman in Genesis chapter 3, which we already covered in our first episode, which is why it's so important to understand, go back, look at Genesis, read what is actually happening there in the first few chapters, because that is a result of rebellion.

It's a result of sin. It is not a kingdom principle. So man ruling over woman is a bad thing, not a positive result of something that God institutes for his orderly congregation.

Amber: Then what does he mean as the law also says that comes back to this outline, read each passage in light as scripture as a whole.

Cassy: Mm-hmm.

Amber: So if that can't be what he's referring to- Right ... so what else could he mean there?

Cassy: Right. So what does that mean? So there's a little red flag. Yeah. You can, like, wave that little red flag, something that we gotta figure out. How does that fit? The next red flag is the verses that follow after this. So as you get into verses 36, we [00:14:00] have a couple of things happen. So I'll read those. It says, "Or was it from you that the word of God came, or are you the only ones it has reached?

If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

You have a very sharp rebuke that comes right after these verses, the women be silent verses. Paul, as a Pharisee, does not say something came from the law that did not actually come from the law. He's not gonna get that wrong. he goes into a very sharp rebuke after that, which is actually called a diatribe.

Amber: Yes, the diatribe, the ancient rhetorical style of arguing against an opponent's slogan.

Hmm. Hmm. This is something that Paul actually does throughout the whole letter of 1 Corinthians. This is a [00:15:00] corrective letter, and there are multiple times that Paul quotes something that they are teaching or saying within their church, and then right after that, he rebukes them with rhetorical questioning.

I think Paul was a bit snarky. I think we would've been besties back in the day. Yeah.

Cassy: I think he was a little snarky, yeah. But the more you study this out, the more you see this is not Paul's voice. This is not how he teaches. This is not something Paul would say in connecting women being quiet to the law, right?

And when it's not in the law. Yeah. that's not how Paul talks, and then right after that he rebukes them.

Amber: So the where it doesn't sound like him is the proof, as you're saying- Mm-hmm

that it is he is talking back to them and repeating their slogan

Cassy: yes. And so I wanna give some more evidence of this being , the best rendition and the best interpretation of this is. I wanna go to the parallel, , Bible to [00:16:00] just show a couple of things

So there's this little word that is, I guess you would say it as eta. I'm not a Greek scholar. It's the

Amber: little N with the curvy thing above it.

Cassy: Yes, it looks like an N, a lowercase N,

so it was a word that Paul uses in , this diatribe argumentative style. To

Amber: introduce the-

Cassy: Yes ...

Amber: rhetorical response.

Cassy: And so you would quote the person's, argument or their saying and then you would use this rhetorical questioning with this word in there, and he does it repeatedly throughout , the book, of First Corinthians.

And you use it to say these absurd questioning in order to crush , the original, argument.

Amber: Yes, it-- I have that scholars note that eta introduces a rhetor- a rhetorical question meant to shock or shame-

Cassy: Yeah ...

Amber: the audience.

Cassy: So English Revised Version starts out that verse 36 with, "What? Was it from you that the word of God went forth or it came unto you alone?"

the New Heart English [00:17:00] Bible starts with, "What? Was it from you that the word of God went out?" And there's a few more. Webster's Bible translation: "What? Came the word of God out from you or came it to you only?" Word English Bible: "What?" So there's, there's several different ones that give-- They put in there, that word what is not actually in there as translatable.

They're trying to demonstrate what Paul is doing here with that little word eta. It is something meant, like as you said, to shock and cause shame to the person that they're talking to in their rhetorical questioning.

Amber: I wish the English language could adapt that.

Simple, please.

Cassy: That'd be fun, right?

Amber: It, it would, it would be- make emails so much more fun.

Cassy: Yeah, that would make emails fun. You have just, like, one little word and you already know that you're, eh-

Amber: Yep ...

Cassy: kinda digging in. So, couple other places in this book that Paul does this, and it's, uh, the first one's 1 Corinthians 1:12 and 13.

Paul says, "Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, 'I am with [00:18:00] Paul,' 'I am with Apollos,' 'I am with Cephas,' 'I am with Christ.' Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" And he uses that little word eta in that last question- Yes ... where he says, "Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?"

Amber: It's where he's telling them their slogan. . And then he is going with the rhetorical style of argument against that slogan. .

Cassy: This one is really clear,, because he quotes them.

He says, "I am with Paul. I'm with apostles." He's literally telling them the sayings that they are saying within the church. the next one is 1 Corinthians 6, and then I just am pulling out verses 12 and 19. and this is the NASB. It says, "All things are permitted for me, but not all things are of benefit.

All things are permitted for me, but I will not be mastered by anything." And then the rebuke comes in the, uh, little eta word, "Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit [00:19:00] within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?" So he gives a rhetorical question rebuke just after quoting.

And now this is something that , a lot of scholars will argue that this is a slogan within the Corinthian church that all things are permitted for me,

and so th- this is something that Paul is rebuking, right? So we have this quote the teaching, quote what they're saying in their church, and then a follow-up with the, , rebuke. If we go back to the 1 Corinthians chapter 14, and we read it through to those verses, it reads very differently.

So...

Amber: Yeah, it does put a different spin on her.

Cassy: For it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church."

"Or was it from you that the Word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, he should acknowledge the things that I am writing to you are a [00:20:00] command of the Lord."

And so we immediately get that rebuke to , that passage.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: So I think it's probably a good time to talk about the things I am writing to you part.

Amber: So if you look at it in this context and you're looking at how you're supposed to read the Bible and take scripture as a whole, the things he's writing to you are all the other times he has addressed men and women-

Cassy: Right

Amber: prior to this in this letter.

Cassy: Mm-hmm. So if you actually go back and you don't cherry-pick these verses out, you have a very different picture of what Paul is setting up.

So in chapter 11, he says, "But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for it is one and the same as a, as the woman whose head is shaved." He doesn't rebuke them for praying or prophesying. He says that if they are praying or prophesying, they just need to have their [00:21:00] head covered.

Amber: Yeah, yeah, they just need to do it where the society won't be distracted by them-

Cassy: Right

Amber: going against the status quo of the day.

Cassy: Yeah.

That is the correction here. But he does not address the fact that she's praying or prophesying. In fact, he's, he's encouraging it in the fact that he's giving some standards to have in her prophesying and her praying publicly.

That's just the beginning, though, because as we get to chapter 12, we start getting into spiritual gifts.

In verse four, he says, "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries in the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all," right? And that's important because notice there's no reference to it just being to one part of the body.

"But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good." So inclusive, like all of this. "For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit." You gotta talk in order to give a [00:22:00] word of wisdom, right? "And to another, the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit." There it is again, another speaking gift, a word of knowledge.

"To another faith by the same Spirit." And to another gifts of healing by the one spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy. It's another one you gotta speak for that, right? And to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues.

And to another the interpretation of tongues. I mean, pretty much everything on this list got some form of talking about. Even if you're gonna heal, you have a gift of healing, you gotta say, "Be healed."

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: So we got word of knowledge, word of wisdom. We've got prophesying.

We got interpretation of tongues, giving tongues. All of these things are speaking gifts. This goes on, though. Paul continues. He talks about the body. Just as the body is one yet has many parts, all the parts of the body, though they are many, are one [00:23:00] body also in Christ. He's talking about everybody.

There's no distinguishing between men and women. There's no exclusion for women in this. It is an inclusive all the way through.

Amber: Yep.

Cassy: Then we get to chapter 14, and he gives some more instructions on speaking in tongues and prophecy, but this is wild. So this is just verses before this passage that we're looking at

He says, "What is the outcome then, brothers and sisters?

When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. All of that is talking, man. All right, so all of this is like super clear instruction to the gathering together of the body and how they are to operate in an orderly way. But the orderly way is not exclude the women. The orderly way is each [00:24:00] one.

Amber: Yes. He even says and addresses his brothers and sisters.

Cassy: Yes, brethren. These are the chapters leading up to the women be silent verses.

Amber: Yeah, so why would he say that and then be like, "Just kidding"?

Cassy: Yeah. Uh, we actually are gonna exclude the women from everything I just mentioned.

So if you wanna look at, , context and you wanna look at evidence of what we're dealing with, when you have these two verses that say women are supposed to be silent, in subjection, as the law says, it's disgraceful, she's gotta ask her husband at home, put those in the context of an immense amount of teaching surrounding how the body is to come together and encourage each other, pray for each other, give words of wisdom and knowledge and prophecy, all by the inspiration of the Spirit, and we could even tie that back to Acts when the Apostle Peter says, "And your sons and your daughters will prophesy."

How do the [00:25:00] daughters contribute if they're supposed to be quiet in the assembly? Then you put that in context to this rebuke that you get afterwards. It just becomes so clear.

Amber: It's so much more clear. .

Cassy: A- and if you've never seen it before, it's just confusing. It sounds like Paul can't make up his mind.

He's all over the place. Or you do what we've seen a lot of the church do, have these kind of weird ways of they allow certain speaking but not other speaking, They've seen a husband and wife teach a man, so maybe that's okay.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: Right? Priscilla and Aquila-

Amber: Or you can go

Cassy: out-

they, they teach Apollos.

Amber: Yes. Or you can go out and you can teach the non-believers, but once it becomes inside the church, it's, it's off-limits.

Cassy: They find these different things that clearly contradict those verses that say for women to be silent in the church, and they make allowances here, make allowances here, but they don't really ever answer what those two verses are talking about.

And when you look at them, they're very severe of what they are doing. They are a very strong restriction. Mm-hmm. And so it has to be something else. And what it really [00:26:00] is, like if we wanna wrap it all up, this is not Paul's words. . Paul is quoting what the Corinthian church or a part of the church-

Amber: Setting up the smackdown.

Cassy: Yep. He is quoting something that they are teaching and trying to restrict, and then he rebukes them for it. It's something that's a pattern all through the book.

And if, so if we're going on this journey as we're looking at the women in ministry thing, looking at lines of authority, we went back to Genesis. We talked about things there. We talked about how God said, "Let them rule," right? It, authority, dominion wasn't given until both the man and woman were there.

When we looked at 1 Timothy , we looked at how Paul is doing something for that church at that time. He is putting a restriction due to false teachings and false doctrines that were going on at that time. And then now we're looking at this passage that is a very severe restriction on women speaking at all, and we can see that this is actually not Paul's word.

He's rebuking them for trying to teach that in that church. . Now, I know there's some other [00:27:00] passages- Go to support the argument I think we're gonna talk about that one next time.

Yes.

Amber: And that was the one that we lovingly call women need not apply.

Cassy: Yes.

Women need not apply. So that's gonna be in 1 Timothy chapter 3. I got good stuff on that. , It's not complicated. It is-- It's easy to understand.

All right, well that's all we got for you this week, guys

Amber: Thanks for joining in. bye