Women Need Not Apply

​[00:00:00]

Cassy: Welcome back, Mayhem Makers. This is Cassandra Barbato. I am your host

Amber: I am Amber Jenks, your co-host. Welcome.

Cassy: today we're gonna go into 1 Timothy Chapter 3. We've been going through a series on, topic of women in ministry, biblical gender roles as far as lines of authority go.

, We've worked through a couple of different passages. Definitely recommend you go back, listen to those if you have not already. but today we're gonna be working through, what we like to title Women Need Not Apply. And so this is a passage that is translated usually in a way [00:01:00] to make it sound as though women are excluded.

Amber: Yes, it is.

Cassy: We're gonna dig into it, and we're gonna pull out the original language a bit. We're gonna get a little Greeky show how actually Paul's not limiting. He's not restricting. And then we're really gonna deal with the one phrase, a husband of one wife, because this is, a big part of the argument of why people say that women are excluded from these ministry areas that Paul is talking about in this passage.

So I think we should start by reading it. You wanna just jump in, dive in, read it? Let's do it. Okay. . First Timothy chapter three says, "It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. An overseer then must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.[00:02:00]

He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity. But if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the Church of God? And not a new convert, - so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.

And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil." And then he goes into a passage about deacons, but we can kind of pause there and just start. So this first portion about overseers, and when you first read it, you hear there's a lot of he, a lot of man.

it even starts out saying, "If any man aspires to the office of overseer." This is the NASB that I'm reading from, and there are other translations that are very heavy in that they use this very male language around the office of overseer. The problem with that is that it's not actually in scripture.[00:03:00]

So, and the reason why it is written this way is, one, it's pulling out the language in a way to make it flow easier to understand in English, and it is the grammatical gender of the words in this passage.

So Koine Greek, and I might be slaughtering that, but that is the Greek that Paul used to write this in, uses this grammatical gender, masculine, feminine, and something called neuter. And w- what it is is that the way that the word is written it changes the word to lean in a masculine or feminine way. However when the Greek defaults to the male gender, , it can include both genders

Like, for example, brethren. Brethren means brothers in scripture. Mm-hmm. But brethren includes the brothers and the sisters in the Lord, and that's why you see, like, the NASB specifically that I just read this passage out of, will often put sisters in even when the word is actually [00:04:00] brethren.

Mm-hmm. It'll still include brothers and sisters. So this is something that I don't know that a lot of people know this. They don't ... When they're reading these passages, they come to something like this, chapter three of 1 Timothy, and they see man, they see he, they see all this, and they just assume that this is a part of the, the language.

And so of course women are not included in the conversation. What they don't know is that the translators have pulled out of the original language this default to the male gender, and then choices are made. If you think that passage is excluding women from the conversation, you're gonna translate in a way that reflects that.

Amber: Mm-hmm.

Cassy: Right? So we see that here. And so we're gonna look at this passage, and I'm gonna show you how when you're actually getting down to it, Paul is pretty clear from the beginning of the chapter that this passage is meant to be about anyone wanting to enter into leadership, and the reason why we know it's anyone is [00:05:00] because he actually says anyone.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: So I think we should pull up Bible Hub.

Amber: Let's do it.

Cassy: Okay.

So I'm gonna read what it says, and this is, ... It's, it's kind of following the way the Greek is actually laid out here. So , trustworthy thus saying, if anyone overseership aspires . All right, so I know that's really chunky.

Amber: Sounds a little weird.

Cassy: It's a little chunky.

If we go back to our original passage as we're reading it, it would be, the NA- NASB puts it this way: It is a trustworthy statement. That's that first part. Trustworthy thus saying, okay? That's the way the Greek puts it there. But we can click on e- that's three words. We can click on one of those words if we want more meaning out of those words.

But it is a trustworthy statement. That's, that's a translation of that for us. If any man, this is the NASB, if any man aspires to the office of overseer, that would be the next part. We [00:06:00] read man in the NASB, but here it says, "If anyone overseership aspires to." So that's the part that the NASB is translating as, if any man aspires to the office of overseer.

It's not man. It's anyone. So we can click on the little word here, 5100. It says someone, anyone, certain one, some, a certain thing. This is a lexical summary. If we go down to Strong's exhaustive concordance, any, anything, whomsoever. This is not a word that means a male individual. This is the beginning of what Paul is getting ready to talk about.

So he's starting to go into the, the details of what an overseer looks like, right? Mm-hmm. He's gonna give us all the attributes. And at the beginning of the conversation, he says, "If anyone..." So if he wanted to establish ... Here, here's the thing. If he wanted [00:07:00] to establish that it was a man, there's another word that he can use.

Amber: Yeah, he could've said, "Hey, guys."

Cassy: Yeah. "

Amber: Sirs only, listen up."

Cassy: Yes.

Amber: But he didn't.

Cassy: No. And it would've been one flip, one insert-

Amber: Mm-hmm ...

Cassy: of the word man to make it very clear that he meant men, if any men or if any man. There's a Greek word for that, and I'm not gonna try and pronounce it because I'm not good with that.

You can give it a shot. You wanna give it a shot?

Amber: Is it anir?

Cassy: Anir?

Amber: An- wir?

Cassy: Something like that.

Amber: That's, that's with a twang. .

Cassy: Yep.

Amber: A-N-E-R with the little thingy above the E.

Cassy: That word there could have been used in the first part of the passage to establish very clearly that this is a gender-specific description. Paul purposefully uses a word that is inclusive, and then throughout the rest of the passage, he never uses words to indicate specifically speaking to men.

The one big debate around that is the [00:08:00] phrase husband of one wife, right?

Amber: Yes, but he's instructing on behaviors that are desirable for the position, not saying that you must be a husband and you must have a wife,

Cassy: yes. And so why, why is that important? I mean, the person who's writing-

doesn't have a, a wife.

Amber: No.

Cassy: So he's not saying something literally, right?

Amber: Otherwise, he, his whole argument is then moot because he's excluded himself.

Cassy: Yes. So if we're reading this passage as a literal a man has to have a wife, and it has to be one wife, we're gonna exclude a lot of people from being able to preach and teach the gospel, to be an overseer.

Amber: Mm-hmm.

Cassy: Right? If they have to have children, too. So if you're going down the list and we're reading this as these are attributes, but that's not. So the, the best understanding of that phrase is a monogamous relationship.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: Right?

Amber: I mean- And it's even the if you're in a relationship, it needs to be [00:09:00] monogamous.

It's not- Right ... the relationship isn't the requirement.

Cassy: Right. Behaving the way that God ordained for a marriage relationship to behave. So now the argument there, they'll still pick on that it is phrased in a way that says a one-woman man or a, a husband of one wife, so it's a, it's definitely leaning in the direction of talking about the husband there.

But I would argue that just like the rest of the, the passage is leaning in the direction of having, being grammatically male, and it is from the beginning established that it is available to both genders by saying right out of the gate, "If anyone desires- Yes ... the office of overseer," that the phrase husband of one wife is also a phrase that is leaning grammatically male, but still includes both the men and the women

i'm gonna give some evidence that within scripture, with the same writer, that

he, uses this [00:10:00] phrase that is grammatically male in Ephesians chapter four so I'm gonna read it because also it's a good-- it's another one to bring up because it's a gender-inclusive passage about, m-ministry, right? It says, "And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as pastors and teachers."

Notice that it doesn't say, "And he gave men as apostles and as prophets and evangelists and as pastors and teachers." It says some and some and some and some the reason why Paul didn't write it the, the way of saying men is because it isn't just for men.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: And he could've done that very easily.

It says, "For the equipping of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for building up of the body of Christ until we attained the unity of faith and the knowledge of the Son of God to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ." That phrase there, mature [00:11:00] man, it is a virtue statement, right?

And that phrase there is the word for a male human being

The passage here is demonstrating something that is talking to the whole body. It's very clear, yet he still uses a phrase that defaults to a grammatically male phrase.

So when you're reading this passage, y- you understand that he's talking about a phrase of meaning maturity.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: Just like in 1 Timothy chapter 3, he's using a phrase, husband of one wife, that is clearly a phrase meaning monogamy.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: Right? So but it's being applied in a similar way to a gender-neutral group, and the gen- we know it's gender neutral because he starts out using gender-neutral language- Mm-hmm ... from the beginning of the passage, and you can carry that through.

But here's some more evidence because as you get into the conversation about the deacons, this phrase comes up again, and he specifically talks to the women [00:12:00] in this passage. He says in verse eight, "Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain, but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.

These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach. Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things. Deacons must be husbands of only one wife and good managers of their children and of their household.

Okay. So we're seeing all kinds of men, right? Mm-hmm. Men, he, this type of language that's in here, and the reality is that it's not in the actual passage in the Greek. This is something that we have added in, in the English language to help us make sense of the passage.

But then here we get to this, right? "Women likewise dignified." And the way the [00:13:00] NASB puts it is, "Women must likewise be dignified." Why does it say women there?

Amber: So this passage for me, the experience and exposure I have had to it, has always been in the Sunday sermons when deacon election comes up, right? Mm-hmm. And the, the pastor wants to go over it and prepare the congregation for their vote of who they're gonna confirm as deacons, and they reference this as the type of man, because the type of church I grew up in interpreted it this way.

Cassy: Mm-hmm.

Amber: And the, the type of man that we're gonna vote for and say that we want as deacons and leaders in our church not only are the husband of one wife, and their wife is then also looked at because of this passage and her conduct and her involvement in the church- Mm-hmm ... and how she carries herself and how their children act and all of that.

Cassy: Right. So the way that they understood the translation was that when it says women, it's talking about the wives of the deacons. The,

Amber: yes.

Cassy: Yeah.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: And I, I've heard that. My, the church that I kinda spent my [00:14:00] earlier, years in did not teach it specifically that way, but I have, as I've studied this passage, I found that argument, throughou- throughout my study.

If we look at it, there isn't anything to say that they are women of the deacons. Like, there are ways that it could have been phrased that would make it very specific that these are the deacons' wives.

But he doesn't do that. He just says, "Women, likewise, dignified." And then so here's the thing, husband of one wife, that phrase comes right after the verse about women.

So we've shown evidence that the, this phrase can be used as a virtue phrase. We've shown that Paul has done that twice, in another place in scripture where he's used a virtue phrase that in- uses the word man that actually means a male human in relationship to the whole body of Christ.

So we've seen that comparison. We have here where he uses the phrase directly after addressing women. [00:15:00]

Cassy: Right? The other evidence that the phrase husband of one wife is not excluding the women from this, from this passage is the fact that Phoebe is a deaconess, that he specifically calls a deaconess.

That's kind of important.

Amber: Yes. Why would he teach against something that he had spoken-

Cassy: Yes ...

Amber: about?

Cassy: So if he has himself named a woman in one of his letters as being a deaconess, and this passage is about deacons, the phrase husband of one wife clearly cannot exclude women from the conversation, and if it can't exclude them from being deacons, it also can't exclude them from being overseers.

So, and that is found in Romans-

Romans 16:1, "I recommend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchreae."

[00:16:00] I don't know if I pronounced that right. I think it sounds great. Awesome. Good. I'm glad that we're in agreement. Cenchreae, that's how it's going. "who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchreae." Now listen. Okay? Specifically being called out as a servant, right, of a specific church. Guess what that word servant is?

That word servant is deaconess. And the argument goes as this, that the word means servant in the Greek, and it can also be used to talk about an office within the church, as it does in 1 Timothy 3.

And that the way that they know whether or not it's talking about an office or just being somebody who serves is the context in which it's used. But here's the thing. The context here is that she is being named as a servant of a specific church. He goes on from there and he says, "That [00:17:00] you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you, for she herself has been a helper of many."

Right? It, the word helper there is patroness, and this is a word that means a woman set over others. All that to be said, that if you go back to this passage in 1 Timothy chapter 3 about deacons, women are clearly named. We have evidence of a woman deaconess in scripture, and that phrase, husband of one wife, is used in regards to deacons.

So we have plenty of evidence to see that that phrase cannot exclude women from the conversation. Does that make sense?

Amber: Absolutely.

Cassy: This is not the gospel, but it is something that is tainted by not understanding the gospel properly. Women in ministry, gender roles, not my fav- my favorite subject is the purity of the [00:18:00] gospel message, identity in Christ.

I love, I love getting into that. But this particular issue is something that should be settled in, in the body of Christ so that we can stop inhibiting people from being called and walking out their calling in Christ. Or being used in a way that is restrictive, that actually leads to abuse and mistreatment.

I don't have that experience. I went through all this stuff not because I have had some kind of nasty experience with, , being made to be subordinate, to abuse or anything like that. I really don't. I have a really good dad, I have a really good grandfather that's with the Lord now, who taught me really the purity of the gospel.

, My, the mentors I had in life in, in school were men. They were really good men. All of my husbands have been good men.

I actually, I don't have anything negative to say about my ex-husband. He was kind to me through our divorce. To me, this isn't an issue. [00:19:00] For me, it was never an issue of, um, fighting against the oppression, right?

Mm-hmm. Or fighting against abuse. It was me settling in myself that God has not restricted me on the basis of me being formed into a woman.

Amber: Mm-hmm.

Cassy: even in that, m- I, I wrestled with my call in ministry for so long-

Amber: Same ...

Cassy: because of these teachings that I had. Even that alone is a big deal.

Amber: Mm-hmm.

Cassy: And we're, we're gonna limit God's daughters? I think that we need to settle this. There are people who are in bondage because of the teaching around this particular issue, and the gospel is there to set us free. And He did set us free. He set us free to live out the gifts and the calling that He has for us.

Amber: I've shared with you my own personal struggle with it because when I went and, , expressed to my church that I [00:20:00] would s- call to the ministry, it was- ... not received the way I thought it was. I mean, that was part of our faith, right? You practice and you profess when you receive Christ.

Mm-hmm. And then when you receive a calling, you go before your church family and you profess what the Holy Spirit has told you. And so I shared this with my church congregation and, and in true traditional church fashion, at the end of the service and after the altar call, they have you stand up front so you're confirmed by your church family, right?

They do the little line where they shake your hand and hug you and tell you they're praying for you, and I can't tell you how many people said that I was gonna be the best missionary. And it was so funny to me, and I was so naive because I was like, "Maybe I just, maybe I just said it wrong. I'm pretty sure I said ministry, but maybe I said mission.

Did I say missionary? 'Cause that's not what I, that's not what the Lord told me."

Amber: And then you question, you know, as we've said before, your own discernment of the Holy Spirit at that point.

Right.

Cassy: Right.

Amber: And then you stay silent for 20 years like I did, and you're like, "Why am I miserable? [00:21:00] Oh, because I didn't listen to Him."

Cassy: Mm-hmm. Am I hearing you right, Lord? Yes.

And, and then arguing. What do you mean by 1 Timothy 2:12? I need an answer. What do you mean by 1 Corinthians chapter 14? I need an answer. Okay. What a- what about Fis- 1 Timothy chapter 3? I need an answer. I need answers in order for me to walk out this calling. And, um, I got 'em now.

Amber: Mm-hmm.

Cassy: It took a long time. It took a lot of research and a lot of study.

Amber: Mm-hmm.

Cassy: But I, I'm 100% confident that the Bible does not restrict women from any form of ministry, and I also am confident that the Bible doesn't tell women they're supposed to be subordinate to men, including their husband. But before we go on from here, let's just read a couple other passages to confirm that this conversation about ministry is not only for the men, 'cause there's plenty of passages in scripture and, and every single one of them has this inclusive language to it.

Let's [00:22:00] jump to Titus 1:5-9. He says, "For this reason, I left you in Crete," I think that's how we say it, "that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man is above reproach."

And right there again, Paul uses the language, "if anyone," if anyone. And this is important because we're seeing at the beginning of the conversation, he sets it up with a gender-neutral statement, and he absolutely doesn't have to do that. So you can read through that passage. I'm not gonna go through the whole thing.

There's another one in 2 Timothy, and I really like this verse because it's a perfect opportunity for Paul to have used the word that means a male human.

Cassy: But this is what it says. 2 Timothy 2:2 says, "The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to [00:23:00] faithful men who will be able to teach others also."

So entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. That word men is the word for mankind.

Amber: Mm-hmm.

Cassy: It was a simple switch. The- Paul could've just put in that word man that means men, as in a male human, but instead he used the word man that means mankind.

Amber: Two more passages. Romans chapter 12, "However, since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to use them properly, if prophecy, in proportion to one's faith. If service, in the act of serving, or the one who teaches in the act of teaching."

Cassy: I just wanna point out really quick that it says the one who teaches, the one who teaches.

Just wanna bring that into the conversation because that's something that has come up in some of the passages that we've studied. Very neutral, though, right?

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: Sorry.

Amber: No, you're good. And then in, verse eight it [00:24:00] continues, "Or the one who exhorts in the work of exhortation, the one who gives with generosity, the one who is in leadership with-

Cassy: Mm-hmm.

There, there we go. That's another one that we should probably highlight. Yes. The one who's in leadership ...

Amber: with diligence, the one who shows mercy with cheerfulness." So it's the one, not the man.

Cassy: Mm-hmm. Very neutral.

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: It-

Amber: When it could of in- if that was the intention, it could've been there.

Cassy: This is Romans.

This is, like, the masterpiece-

Amber: Yes ...

Cassy: of Paul's, outline of, of the Christian faith. Why wouldn't he just put in there, "The man who teaches," and use the word for men?

Amber: Yes.

Cassy: But he doesn't.

Amber: No.

Cassy: All right, so what was the other passage?

Amber: The other passage is Corinthians chapter 12, starting in verse 27, "Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And God has placed in the church, first of all the apostles, second prophets, third [00:25:00] teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

Are all apostles, are all prophets, are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? Now eagerly desire the greater gifts." I, I, I wanna highlight that last one there. "Now eagerly- Equal. Yeah. He tells the, the people who are gonna be getting this letter, "Now eagerly desire the greater gifts."

Cassy: Is that just to one portion of the body? Pretty sure it says all. Right. Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is part of it it's pervasive-

Amber: Mm-hmm ...

Cassy: is what it is, when you read these passages on the involvement of who is invited into the ministry.

All right. So let's, let's go back and just kind of wrap this all up. So 1 Timothy 3, that whole passage, the main passage that we've been looking at. Where it talks about all the attributes of the [00:26:00] overseers and the deacons, the Greek leans male because when it's discussing a mixed gender group, that is the default. , going back to that phrase, Husband of one wife, they wanna try and use that to leave out the women of the conversation, but you can't do that because the evidence leans in the direction of saying that that phrase is being used as a virtue or a moral statement-

Cassy: and that it is leaning grammatically male because it's actually talking to a mixed gender group-

 

, And we have this example through brethren. You also can hear it in like the phrase sons of God. We know that this is what , the Greek language does. And the reason why we know that this is inclusive of the men and the women throughout this whole thing is because Paul starts the passage using that, that word anyone, if anyone aspires to the office of overseer,

and also every other time that Paul brings up these appointments, he uses [00:27:00] gender-inclusive language every time. So women, women are able to apply.

Amber: So join us next time. We will be addressing the common phrase the man is the head of the household. . We're gonna look at what scripture actually says about that , and what the head means.

Cassy: It's gonna be good. All right. See you next time. See you guys.